Important Notice: Numbers

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Amaryllis
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Amaryllis » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:03 pm

I wouldn't be up for change in name. There are histories that players have with Kiene as well as each Town or VR has gained reputations for one thing or another, it is up to the player base to change those reputations over time. To wipe that away with a name change, doesn't sit well with me. So no, I don't feel it has anything to do with Name.
In the Creation phase, only Bravia is listed as a Republic. Both Kiene and Fenia are listed as Monarchy.
When I joined, oh so long ago, it either told me what those were, or I looked it up online to best choose.
We did talk of defaulting to Cork, but decided that was not something we want to do, to force a player where they must start. But that was something that was considered. It just doesn't feel right to force that on a new player, so they have an absolute choice in the matter.
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Gretub
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Gretub » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:16 pm

Duke_of_Earl wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:20 am
There may also be an issue with Bravia and Fenia having two Light aligned temples and Kiene having two dark aligned temples instead of each of us having one each. Dark alignment is potentially also a tighter niche then neutral or light aligned players; particularly in a "G" rated game setting where it is all the easier to play a light aligned character, and bit more difficult to portray a dark aligned character without coming too close to breaking some of the content restrictions. Kiene would presently be a default home for a smaller dark aligned player niche while Bravia and Fenia are deafult homes for larger light aligned player niches.
For the record...the game is PG13...not G.

Second , like Amaryllis has said... name change isnt the way to go. If you claim Kiene is hard to pronounce... have you seen some of the other V Rs? If you meant to change it to something completely different... the VR names were created long before we were players.

Plus it's a text based RPG.... who needs to actually pronounce it?
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Duke_of_Earl » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:45 pm

Gretub wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:16 pm
For the record...the game is PG13...not G.
It is?!? Are you sure?
You can fit some pretty dark concepts into PG-13
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Calysta
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Calysta » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:51 pm

@Amaryllis, I don't mean this like a name change in game when you change your character. The history, the reputation, and the culture would all remain the same. I love our history, reputation, and culture and would be the one most opposed to changing any of that.

France used to be Gaul, and Iran used to be Persia. They still get to keep their history, and this is more in line with what I was thinking. We already RP that there is an old Kienian dialect and a new Kienian language, so it absolutely would be plausible our VR is known by different names in different languages.

I'm not for making the name change lightly or even right now. As mentioned, I want to focus on other things first to improve Cork's numbers. I was thinking it would be more appropriate to consider after February 1st because right now we need to focus on recruiting and retention.

I'll definitely be bringing it up again, not because I have necessarily made up my mind, but because it is something worth analyzing in greater detail since random players who know nothing about our history and culture have nothing to go on other than the name. However, I did want to mention it and give a heads up.

If we do consider this in greater detail, I will absolutely want players outside of Kiene to give their sincere opinions on how they feel about Kiene's name by itself (not taking into consideration our RP, history, culture, or reputations that are not up for being changed along with the name).
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Zuan » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:55 pm

In regards to a name change. Obviously if it's something that people think would improve player retention or selection so be it. Personally I think it's a minor issue compared to other problems, but Calysta is correct to say that the names of regions do change. However rarely does the name change internally, usually it is change by external powers who successfully invade. You could quite easily comment on many countries and regions that were named during the colonialisation by the British, Spanish, etc which saw regions and cultures degraded and destroyed and replaced with identities more befitting of the conquering nation. This was also true in ancient, medieval and even Renaissance history.

Gaul for example was not called 'Gaul' by the people who lived in that region, it was a Roman construction to encompass a variety of different opposition tribes and cultures that were hostile to the Empire within a single space. When the Romans conquered the region this area then became 'Gaul'. Not because that was it's original name, but those who had conquered had changed the name to reflect their own cultural and militarial understanding of the region. This later went on to become part of the Kingdom of the Franks, who succeeded in conquering much of the region of Gaul from the Romans, which then developed over time becoming Francia and then finally France as we know it today.

So I guess what I am trying to same most historical re-naming of regions related to conquest and invasions, it's only been a relatively recent phenomena where countries and nations have re-named themselves often moving away from the enforced colonial identities in place of their more traditional histories and heritage. Not sure if that is of any interest to Calysta or Kiene, but if they plan to re-name the region it might be worth presenting it as part of a wider cultural/societal change than just simply changing the name IG for population reasons.

One could in fact argue that it only makes sense for Kiene to re-name itself as it's geographical boundaries in terms of player base are in Widu and Cork rather than where Kiene is actually situated. Instead it's player base is made up of the conquered regions of Widu and Cork, so 'technically' you'd already have the justification for a name change.
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Duke_of_Earl » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:24 pm

Calysta wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:34 am
@Duke_of_Earl
Thanks for the feedback. My understanding is that Kiene is listed as a Monarchy due to having a Monarchy style government. So that wouldn't be a reason to have less spawns. Also, I don't think players are able to get much info on the VRs before they join.
-nods; It might not mean less initial spawns, yet still have an impact on how many of the new spawns are choosing to stay in Kiene after the first day, week, or level.

think @Dwayberry may have a point. I do think that player sponsorship does have something to do with it. I just don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities that the name has something to do with it as well. It could be more than one factor.
-nods If pronunciation is really an issue, I suppose maybe add accent marks, apostrophe's, or other vowel symbols like the bar or two dots to clarify the pronunciation?
Calysta wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:34 am
I also want to clarify that we do allow our citizens freedom of religion even if there is a state sponsored religious order.
Ah, good good. Perhaps spread this news around IC too?; I think lots of us are under the impression that Kiene's citizenry are meant to be part of the state religion, at the very least if they want to be involved in the government. You do have elections there? What happens if someone runs for office that isn't part of the faith?

---

There might be something to both places being listed as monarchy but ours being named Fenia in a game called secFENIA.
Perhaps admin can add some differentiation to that creation page? List us as an Absolute/Feudal Monarchy (i.e. High Medieval Era Style) and list yours with a descriptor such as Theocratic Constitutional/Parliamentary Monarchy (i.e. Renaissance Era Style)?
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Aishe » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:43 pm

I am really relieved to hear that Cork has been given time to grow their population. It's always very upsetting when something like this comes up and as a victim of it in a different game, I know it absolutely sucks to have your town on the chopping block.

A lot has been said and discussed already; I've been reading this with interest since the announcement was made. I do want to point at the big elephant in the room, however. Before I do, I'd like to explicitly state that my statement is not being made due to IC or OOC history and feelings.

Kiene did not always have a population issue. It used to have folks that wanted to be in Kiene for the specific culture and uniqueness - because just like each Viceroyalty, Kiene has its own spark. That's the nice thing about this game: each Viceroyalty varies with culture, expectations, community, ruling style, etc etc. However, as we can see, a lot of these folks that do not fit into the Tsera Fuerte (Te'sorthene Roma and the Dalakoi) have abandoned ship. They either went to another Viceroyalty or left the game entirely. I am aware of several instances personally. Some fantastic, active Roleplayers even refuse to come back to the game because of what they describe to be a cult and the bullies of the Secfenia.

I am not trying control how people write their characters or enjoy this game. But to me, the problem with Kiene is its closed-offness and its harsh attitude towards people who are not "one of them". Because Kiene, for the most part, is Tsera Fuerte. You have a few exceptions, such as Logo and Alder, who have zero connection with Tsera Fuerte except that they share a Viceroyalty. Unfortunately, that's only so helpful when majority of the population and virtually the entire government is Tsera Feurte. There has been harassment from the Tsera Fuerte, as well as massive exclusion on varying levels - taverns, forums, and IG.

This may not be the case anymore, but that is most likely because most of this group has not been very active in the last year or so. And, honestly, it is by far not EVERY single member of Tsera Fuerte. Yet, as a whole, they are off-putting and closed, and I know that in itself can run people out of town without extra reason.

With all of that said, yes, I am aware other individuals have run people out of other Viceroyalties. Zuan ran people out of Fenia for one reason or another. I left Bravia specifically because of Nocturne. Unfortunately, heads will always butt and thankfully, we have other places we can go to if we do not like the current company in one Viceroyalty. I think what's most concerning is that people have actually left the game or do not want to return to the game, despite having two other Viceroyalties to choose from, because of the Tsera Fuerte.

I am aware my statement will be taken with a grain of salt due to personal history with Scarlet and Rieron. I am just pointing out what no one else has bothered to say. We have a lot of families, clans, and/or groups in this game, but the only one who seems to really be negatively effecting population and activity is the Tsera Fuerte. In the very beginning, it used to be a warm and inviting group. It's not been conveyed that way in a very long time. They have had direct and constant control over Kiene and its towns for years now, on all levels. That, alone, sends a negative message to the Keinians that do not belong to the group. It isolates that part of the population. Alder already stated that he had asked to participate in government more than once and has gone ignored. You have people that WANT (or wanted) to get involved and help, but they have gone ignored or denied. WHY?

In my opinion, Kiene is suffering due to its bullying and exclusion. There are other factors, of course, but I think that has been the leading downfall for Kiene for a while now and is a big reason why it's numbers are where they are. It's not the name. It's not bad luck.

Bravia is different. (Because I think Bravia should also be addressed, even if it's not directly on the chopping block). Bravia is suffering due to quieter citizens. Because, in all honesty, even when Bravia was larger and more active, it had always been a quieter region. Unfortunately, activity attracts more activity. This was seen recently when an active Bravian came to Fenia because they wanted to be around more active people. It's an unfortunately vicious cycle that is putting Bravia down and raising Fenia up.

Fenia is successful right now due to the immense activity we have on all fronts: forums, taverns, IG. The government is crazy active and its rare that there is not a Privy discussion ongoing. We push each other to stay active and we encourage and challenge others to get as active as they can as well, via programs and competitions. If we get someone who wants to be involved, we offer them options and try to help them find their spot in Fenia. (Good examples being Ella and Amenstria.) However, Fenia was quiet and slower for a while, which is not a secret. I think Fenia just lucked out, gaining some activity and determined players at the right time.

I pronounce it 'Keen', by the way. :)
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by balerion » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:50 pm

Taverns? Come now Aishe the taverns have been in a sorry state for months and the first real activity they saw was when we took Kiene Castle.
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Aishe » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:58 pm

balerion wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:50 pm
Taverns? Come now Aishe the taverns have been in a sorry state for months and the first real activity they saw was when we took Kiene Castle.
If you're referring to my statement about Fenia being active in taverns: The taverns have had varying degrees of activity for a long while now. Some days, they are slammed, some days they are empty. Activity time varies greatly as well. You never really know. C'est la vie.

When there are creatures in it however, it is usually Fenians. It's been that way for many months now. The only Bravian I can think of that really frequents the taverns is Varann and the only Kienian I can think of that frequents is Alder.
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Re: Important Notice: Numbers

Post by Bridget » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:20 pm

Aishe wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:43 pm
In my opinion, Kiene is suffering due to its bullying and exclusion. There are other factors, of course, but I think that has been the leading downfall for Kiene for a while now and is a big reason why it's numbers are where they are. It's not the name. It's not bad luck.

I played this game for three years before Bridget joined the Te'sorthene Roma. During those early years, every trip to the tavern, my character was insulted and harassed by characters who expressed hatred toward her or ignored her for the mere fact that she lived in Widu. That was off-putting for a newbie who joined this game not knowing a soul. One of the first characters who were kind? Rieron.

Bullying and exclusion; it's not just Kiene. I don't normally get into discussions like this, but this double-standard has been bothering me for years.
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