Release 3.1.004 Preview

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balerion
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by balerion » Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:41 pm

My personal inventory being worth thousands less today than yesterday sure feels like a loss of money.

When I do process that ore I'll have far less simply because I did it the wrong month. Obviously if there had been a description of what the change did in the roadmap, which I regularly read, I'd have done it already.
Last edited by balerion on Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by Alder » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:02 pm

It's... not?

I'm assuming you somehow are talking about having 'thousands' worth of items you could sell at minimum price... I say thousands because this minimum price would be 2.00 or 5.00 unless we're looking at equipment, which you wouldn't sell at minimum price anyway. That's a minimum of 400 items and likely more like 1000 items in order to have at least 2000 freznics worth of items and therefore have the claim of having lost 'thousands' in the plural (although 2000 is still very low to be claiming 'thousands').

Most of these items will still sell at minimum price, regardless... since, you know, they still have a use beyond being used in the temple, just, they won't sell as quickly since you will actually need to sell them at the rate people are using them.

And I do not believe for a moment that your personal inventory has that many items in it... especially not ones that won't just straight up sell to peasants and players at a fairly high rate.

So, in conclusion, these items are not worth any less than they were before... and if you believe that they still are, then I still don't believe that you have lost 'thousands', even if these items somehow, inexplicably became worthless.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by balerion » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:05 pm

I've enough items it would take years to sell that I was going to process next month. With the value drop I expect intense competition. Hundreds more of which are in the temple inventory. Having said that in public I'll change it rapidly, but there you go.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by Duke_of_Earl » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:09 pm

Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:43 pm
I don't see that players are losing any money over this...
Some players -points at Bale- have invested in ores personally, storing some of their personal wealth in the form of stone and iron rather than in reznics.
This with the forknowlege that a means existed to liquidate such holdings. So folks buy in ore at 5F-5.50F, and repost it when they need liquid capital. A temple would buy it, burn it, and make a 0.05F profit. When dealing in hundreds or even thousands of tons of ore, this generates significant returns for the temple which then funds beggars, guards, WP jobs at, deacons sometimes, healing item stocks, etc. Now folks like Bale who may own 5000 units of stone, find they are out about 1F per stone, i.e. 5000F if that is the case, and they need to go through grants to get their ores liquidated, they can't use the open market anymore as they would post for 5F each ut recycle for 4.5, the temple would loose money recycling their ore. The temple can only recycle their ore for less than 4.50, as we still need to make our budget requirements too.
Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:43 pm
I personally don't really see this change as an issue... or, at least, not the same sort of issue as Bal and Duke seem to.
I'm not sure if Kiene simply hadn't been doing this, I presumed all three VR's were, but all that stuff FeniaVR was recently praised for in terms of giving out WXYZ benefits to it's citizens; was funded by the liquidation of VR ore resources; @mutual profit to all parties. I'm really not sure how we will maintain social service programs now. or later is my actual concern. It's not as big a problem if the VR has to make a F less than usual, as long as it is still making F; this even might be a fairer reflection of the actual cost of production. If however the ore is destined not to become F anymore but to become scraps instead; then really, all VR's are going to have run their sectors independently in the black. Take barnyards for example. Bravia last they were spoken of to me in this area charged 25F across the board for animals. Fenia charges 25, 35, 35 (and I only used to push for 50). This sector tends to run in the red and have the deficit covered by ore profits. If ore profits are eliminated. Animal prices will need to rise back up some to make sure Barnyards are running in the black. I know some people have argued for this, but meh, at best I'd have liked to know this was coming in time to react to it in advance. This is potentially true across the board for each sector in each VR; points prices, teachers salaries, stockpiles, are all made possible by valuing stone and iron as Freznics for purposes of budgeting the economy. If this is being eliminated and VR ores are for product building only in a low retail environment, all of these things may dry up.

The recent take over of Widu, clearing out of a VR's and university's inventories and a town's market shows that a hit MUCH bigger than this doesn't actually lead to problems that can't be overcome with a bit of interaction between players.
This was a teribble thing, and my character has berated Bales about it, but it was still a one time occurance with all the mechanisms in place to recover from it. This represents a permanent change to the nature of the game. It means we're all going to have how to learn how to rebalance our budgets to function without the use of an ore-based income stream; forevermore ... or unless admin changes their mind.

My issue with it is that scrap still isn't integrated into the game properly, so it feels like mismatching mechanics in the game. This might have been better if the scrap changes had all come at once.
nods. I can agree with this. Especially i it gets this change postponed for a bit and we can have another couple of weeks to prepare and to liquidate remaining stores in the meantime. The other thing was this happeneing during the holiday season. Not every one is about even in the last couple of days to deal with this. It is going to e a nasty surprise to anyone who took a week or 10 days off and comes back January 3rd or so to find they have been affect the way Bale has.
Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:43 pm
That said, there is now 'some' use for scrap in game, especially for players grinding workshop experience, so I really don't see this as any more than a minor niggle about how this could have been 'better'... I don't see this as something particularly bad. I can see these changes making it a lot easier to grind workshop xp, but perhaps a little harder to make money while doing so.
I don't know. So far, the scrap prices on my market are:
43 Scraps of wood 1.00 Faranni (Via Steward)
163 Scraps of wood 1.00 Dwayberry
521 Scraps of wood 1.00 Bloodstone
504 Scraps of stone 0.05 Temple (Via Priest)
64 Scraps of stone 0.05 Argenth (Via Steward)
64 Scraps of hide 1.00 Dwayberry
24 Scraps of wool 1.00 Dwayberry
66 Scraps of wool 2.35 Faranni

It costs 111 scrap per item.
Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly am not going to pay 111F to generate 1 ball of wool valued at 2F or 111F to generate 1 Hide valued 5F.
These are small decimal values they need to be. We'll see how things adjust in the coming days, but if people aren't going to match values fairly, I don't predict as much scrap use going on as would be hoped for.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by Alder » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:43 pm

These prices are ridiculous. You can get several hundred scrap from recycling a low cost item.

I was selling at 0.05 each and still making more of a profit than I used to from just recycling.

Honestly, I think 0.01 to 0.03 is more reflective of the actual value of scrap and what it costs to get it.

Also, forgive me, but I really don't think we should take balerion, a character who is probably the biggest hoarder in the game and who could quite possibly have more funds than a whole VR to be representative of the average player...

The arguments being presented were talking about new players at the start here, and then suddenly balerion is the example (and I still don't believe for a moment this is anywhere near a big deal to this character).

I know that it is 'possible' to amass great wealth in this game, but I've personally always kept my character hovering around the 1000 freznic mark unless saving up for a level up or unless he's just made a large purchase. That was never my priority in this game and I know that many other players also have other goals with how they grow their characters. I really don't think balerion is typical here.
Last edited by Alder on Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by Duke_of_Earl » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:48 pm

Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:02 pm
I say thousands because this minimum price would be 2.00 or 5.00 unless we're looking at equipment, which you wouldn't sell at minimum price anyway.
Regardless of the item minimum price, the sales would have been up to 11% therof minus the difference. I have for example in the past recycled plucked chickens for 11.10 that were brought in at up to 11F; and in units of 100's. I'd sell these for 10 if needed for actual fried chicken, but this was all excess stock.

Most of these items will still sell at minimum price, regardless... since, you know, they still have a use beyond being used in the temple, just, they won't sell as quickly since you will actually need to sell them at the rate people are using them.
The point of temple recycling is dealing with stuff that isn't selling. If something was selling then we wouldn't recycle it, we'd leave it on the open market to sell.
Particularly as most products, with the exception of those plucked chickens, do tend to sell for more than 11% of the minimum listed value.
No one makes more money off a recycled item then an item sold for actual use. Bale isn't loosing money because the temple paid him more than the market, he's loosing money because the temple was already the least you can get for it, and now it is less than the least. He can post it on the market for half a F more, and whether or not that is of use to him over the long term, it is of no use to the temple. If we'd been able to process his goods, we'd also have made 350F. That would be a barrel of holy drink, some window panes, a few days of beggar fund. etc. The temple uses recycling to fund itself too. It doesn't just fund the players and the institutions using it, it funds itself. We need that funding.
Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:43 pm
These prices are ridiculous. You can get several hundred scrap from recycling a low cost item.
I was selling at 0.05 each and still making more of a profit than I used to from just recycling.
Honestly, I think 0.01 to 0.03 is more reflective of the actual value of scrap and what it costs to get it.
Nods. That's my take. basically whatever the market price of the item is divided by 111, so 6F hides would have scraps costing 6/111=0.054 so about 0.6F
Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:43 pm
Also, forgive me, but I really don't think we should take balerion, a character who is probably the biggest hoarder in the game and who could quite possibly have more funds than a whole VR to be representative of the average player...

The arguments being presented were talking about new players at the start here, and then suddenly balerion is the example (and I still don't believe for a moment this is anywhere near a big deal to this character).
nods quite right, He entered the convo and I ran with it; sorry.

Edit: don't now how big a deal it is to the character, but to the player; remember I got peeved once when m steward ran away with 800F worth of milled merchandize. So it's understandable to me someone loosing out on several thousand F would be upset about it. I lost a phoenix once too. I wish there were ways to get back such losses.

Either way, it's items turning over quickly on the market side of the equation, and more importantly the budgeting of institutions that concerns me as we, Temple,TH, and VR provide a lot of newbie suppport at the expense of the institution, and we are ale to afford to it all on account of liquidation of mineral wealth. At the end of the day, if we are going to loose this ability to liquidate mineral wealth at the institutional level, I fear it shall impact our ability to continue such endevors. The amount we bring in from simple sales isn't necessarily significant enough to cover a full service budget. We shall see.
Last edited by Duke_of_Earl on Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by balerion » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:03 pm

So because I've played for 9 years a personal loss of funds is to be sneered at? That's rubbish. Furthermore I'm in possession of ore belonging to others, that impacts them too. I've hoarded gems for years sure, but I've paid good money for them. I've also given quite a few away. Treating me as an insatiable black hole because I'm not poor is anything but fair.

And though I've said it already IC I'll say it OOC as well. I didn't steal Kiene's inventory. I don't have more wealth than a VR.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by Alder » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:46 pm

These are actually valid points, Duke, but may I point something out?

While Kiene was the last of the VRs to introduce these schemes, I don't believe (and I may be wrong here, I haven't been in the council for some time) that they do it by recycling things in the temple. Indeed, they put these schemes up before they even had access to mines and ores.

These schemes are not solely supported by temple sacrifice and I doubt they'd disappear because of it disappearing... if they did, I believe it would be more indicative of the priorities of the VR than of the belt tightening being excessive.

Considering the surplus of resources in the game, I would personally argue that 350f is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things, especially when we are talking about a temple rather than a player.

Balerion

I'm trying to keep this general and avoid specifics to be honest (hence why I am arguing 'not' to use you as an example of this as you are an outlier in this... probably the biggest one in the game), especially since the argument previously being presented was that older players might enjoy the challenge, but that it might cause issues for younger players. I certainly am not 'sneering' at anything.

However, if we are insisting on making this specific and personal, then you yourself have commented for ages that it is stupidly easy to make money in this game and that resources mean nothing due to how plentiful they are. If that's the case, then you have NOTHING to lose here of any significance.

As for Kiene's inventory being cleared out... this was done. Whether or not balerion did it is something that can be resolved in character via the courts. It is unimportant here who did it as, again, we are discussing the way this change may impact the game as a whole rather than trying to actually take any in character action and I am trying not to focus on the specifics of outlier cases. I am not treating you as an 'insatiable black hole', I am simply treating you as an outlier that should not be considered when looking at how this change will affect the game 'in general'.




Ok, my own thoughts on this change are that I believe it has been needed for some time, but not quite in its current iteration. I've felt for a while that there is too much money floating around in Secfenia (for those who aren't like me and keep their characters without access to loads of it at any time) and not enough to use it on)... getting rid of things that it is used on in order to make more money only enhances that problem. This takes items and potentially, once the system is fully finished, turns them into different items. I am actually greatly in favour of this... but I'd like the system to be fully finished rather than letting scraps start to pile up with no use until it is... and then suddenly have a massive excess of them when it is such that we just have the same problem, just staggered a bit into a different place.



On another note, the changes to peasants are really cool. I don't know how much use they will see, but I really like the concepts.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by balerion » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:23 pm

Perhaps I misunderstood being probably the biggest hoarder in the game?

I'll wait and see what Zachrin says. If I were the only person impacted I wouldn't bother. I'm not. Ever since the temples were nuked money generation isn't at all what it used to be. As far as temple funds are concerned 1kf isn't pocket change.
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Re: Release 3.1.004 Preview

Post by Duke_of_Earl » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:01 pm

Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:46 pm
These schemes are not solely supported by temple sacrifice and I doubt they'd disappear because of it disappearing... if they did, I believe it would be more indicative of the priorities of the VR than of the belt tightening being excessive.
Perhaps not 'soley' nor will they entirely disapear, but significant enough to matter and not be an incidental thing to adapt to.

Considering the surplus of resources in the game, I would personally argue that 350f is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things, especially when we are talking about a temple rather than a player.
Ah. believe me, I'm as greatful and thankful and appreciative for every 0.02F I can make by recycling the occasional feather or ball of wool as I am for a 'tons of ore' grant from the VR. Nothing is insignificant and every drop in the bucket is of use.
Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:46 pm
Ok, my own thoughts on this change are that I believe it has been needed for some time, but not quite in its current iteration. I've felt for a while that there is too much money floating around in Secfenia (for those who aren't like me and keep their characters without access to loads of it at any time) and not enough to use it on)... getting rid of things that it is used on in order to make more money only enhances that problem.
nods, I suppose. Is that more of an elder problem though? I don't know how much more money is floating around for level 1's beyond the specific amounts accounted for in the programs we provide or management strategies
Alder wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:46 pm
This takes items and potentially, once the system is fully finished, turns them into different items. I am actually greatly in favour of this... but I'd like the system to be fully finished rather than letting scraps start to pile up with no use until it is... and then suddenly have a massive excess of them when it is such that we just have the same problem, just staggered a bit into a different place.
Nods. I like the overall system as presented, I just didn't expect it to affect temples too, and thus all the ripple effects that will follow. Though note, the production of the items the temple could recycle would also make workshops level.

edit: I think I'm getting a bead on how the new system works though.
...as opposed to hanging out with my mother on X-mas eve. ^:-P
It wont be able to use newbie goods anymore, which is a shame, but atm I believe Artisans can perhaps still produce goods of functional value to the temple.
Last edited by Duke_of_Earl on Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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