To Be Free Trade Or Not To Be (Poll Question and Discusion)

[Ciphas]

Please can you answer me how do you protect them if by not alowing trade there is NO MILK on the market ?

If you explain this to me and lots of exemples i will understand .
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Yes i am the cause - i agree but also apart from me who is trading ?

Do you have traders that come and sell items ? If not ask who wants and have a honest competiton .
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You are upset that at one point i had lots of items 100 of some product on your market - I agree i did that bt look at the market - it need it now you have none or you have just a few items at ridiculos prices - How is that better ?
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You post a short list then post the long list and i can answer all your questions .

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I also have a question should i post the transactions i made with your TH and VR and how much money i have given to your TH and VR ?

[Wyllow]

If you feel better to threaten by: Showing us your trades, that is your prerogative.

Never once did I say you could not trade here. Never. This is about us protecting our market. Yes, you have driven production out of our citizens with your exuberant dumping and extremely low prices. You have created a home for your sales without regard to what you have done to the economy. Is it so hard to understand people have stalled working because you have destroyed the balance that was once here?

I completely understand that you would need to fight for this suggested change, because the tables have been turned. You stand to loose rather than our citizens that reside here.

You claim that there are no items on the market. That will correct its self now that our people can -sell- on their own market. My other thought is... Why does what we have on our market concern you? It is our market, after-all, isn't it?

EDIT: I will also explain the need on the limited number of items.
When you come in, and dump a large amount of items on our market, it is one thing to have tossed on 10 or even 20.. But, when you toss on 100's at such a low price, it drives away any chance for your items to sell quickly. That means as long as those items are there, that is the precedent price tag. If people want a chance to sell their items, they MUST sell at a lower price rather than waiting for your items to sell out before they can sell to make some form of profit.

That isn't right.

[Ciphas]

Because it was a "free" market and i want it to be free .

And again you did not answer my questions :

How is it better now when there are no items on the market of a product or the ones that are have very very high prices ?


Now why do i care let me explain :

1. waerth i gave him raw materials when he ask and also i had for him all the leather he has on sale now on the market .

From him i buy ALL the weapons i sell in the rest of secfenia .

In time i exchanged with him social points and we are friends - Please ask him if you do not belive .

2. baby she is great sent me letter to suport me and she is gathering oranges and i buy from her also she is nice every time i came here with me .

3.Tolin - from him i buy potatoes every time i come and klah stems and he is also my friend .

4. Until this law victorious i considered her my friend because i bought from her oranges and difrent raw materials - but now she is quiet and forgot how i help in the past .

5. Ava - at some point she had like 40 cow carcases for sale and she kept them for me until i came and bought them even if it took a long time and she could have sold them 1000 time at a more higher price .

6. Reaver_Silverstone he is family altho at some point he was competition and we made trade deals and exchange goods and help each other .

7. Winnetou i had bought from him corn and help me .

And this is just what i remember in just a few minutes .

What do you see there - my friends - my family in game to whom i send letters i ask what they want and how can i help - i bring gifts and buy their goods .

Yes please ask each of them - ask them if i am honest and bought their goods every time i come - WIDU GOODS that i EXPORT !

Why do i do this because you are trying to take my family from me for money that is why !

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No i do not stand to lose because i can sell in other parts and because this economic politcy will make me even richer but can you be happy just by having money in this game ? i need my friends .

[balerion]

Firstly you have a misconception. There have been market laws in Kiene since the writing of the VR laws.

I have been a trader for many years. I went so far as to found a traders guild. However I NEVER dumped goods to the extent that you have. I wrote you a letter personally and after ran election campaigns and forum discussion on why market dumping should be stopped. I don't care what you think is good and proper, you don't live here. Why have I not kept my fields in production? You. I don't have the patience to devalue my goods to fenian prices. Fenian prices are that way for a reason. It has been as such for years. That doesn't mean the rest of the world economy should suddenly change just because someone wants to run around with hundred of items plopping them everywhere with no regard for current market situation.

The fact that you started a forum poll on this honestly makes me feel ill. A poll upon which anyone in the world can vote simply because you aren't happy your market manipulation was stopped is simply childish.

[Ciphas]

I hear and hear this word market manipulation .

Please explain How do i manipulate your market if i bring items that you don"t have at a decent price ?

There where lots of gods that i was the only one that i sold here .

I ask you how is it better for Widu market if the buy cow c. at 25-28f instead of 18f i sell them ?

You think you know what is best for widu by making the price rise and this way earn more money and i make you Illl ?

If you think we have low price in fenia come and buy off that market nobody is oposing you to do that . This is a free world not a jail in wich i have to stay in one place because if i come in widu the prices drop and the ones who want a monopol are afraid of trade .

[Pup]

Pup is not an economist. She will not provide complex and elaborate reasons for her vote, but she feels it is relatively well informed.

In all honestly, Non-Widu citizens have no real say in the towns laws anyway.

[Drydan]

Ciphas....I can understand as to why you are upset...here is the thing...

We have citizens that have workshops now think about this Supply and Demand....

Our workers supply products that they produce for other workers that need them and they want to sell those products at a price that will give them profits....but when you come in and bring in that particular product and lower the price which is under cutting our workers which upset the workers because they can not sell their products to others because of it.

However, like Wyllow said....it is the amount of items that you put on the market and takes a long time to get rid of those items and our workers cannot put up their products because YOU come in and plop those products under cutting the prices that should be a profit for our Workers.

As for a limit of 10 ...that is not for our Citizens it is for the traders that come in and trade items...well you can place 10 at a time and if it is gone that day you can place 10 more...just give our workers the option to be able to put their products on the Market whether if it is 10 or 100 items...Our Workers are the first line of production then if we need something that we do not have yeah we will trade for those.

But if you want Ciphas you can contact me and say HEY I noticed something that you do not have...and want to trade with me...Sure I will trade as the Mayor of Widu and place them on the market for you and if we get low on items then I could or any future Mayor can contact any traders about the certain items.

Also we do have the citizens that travel to get wood or even fish for us from time to time only when they are able to but however, with those items that we do not produce here in Widu like fish or wood we can do something like that set up a way where you can trade with the Town Hall.

Now if you trade with an individual with more than 10 items ....that is fine as long as that individual buys it quickly and take it off the market. Its the length of time with more than 10 items which I have seen like 30 items for one product and it sits there for a long time which disrupts the economy of Widu...if our Citizens can not earn profits Widu cannot earn profits either.


However I am looking at the list of items you sent me and will get back to you..We are protecting our Citizens so that they CAN earn profits without being undercutted from those products and the amounts of it is the problem so lets allow our workers to be able to earn their money without having to cut below you and lose profits because of it.


Edited: Oh about the amounts of items to be placed and yes I do agree that it should be better termed ...it is geared toward to traders outside of Widu well Kiene so we will make that adjustment in the next few days or so.


Edited #2 : As Mayor of Widu....I will not vote on this poll because it can go either way I understand from the Trader's perspective for wanting free market but at the same time I have to consider the Citizens of Widu too as well so I am abstaining my vote on this poll (As there is no abstain button) there has to be a way where the trader can put items on the market and at the SAME time our Citizens need to profit as well.

[Zuan]

I personally find this funny for a few reasons, including Balerion's hypocrisy, considering how in the past he has dumped things on Fenian Mines and profiteered off of my citizens. Though mind you this is the Kienian mentality, it's all about us until we need armed protection from another Kingdom, and cheap iron and wood to run our mines. Yet, let me be blunt about this Ciphas, all this is an elitist law placed down by people who didn't like you competing with them. Why you might ask, well let's take the example of your 25f food to their 35f foods. First off at selling at 25f you are still making a 'significant' profit, and I am sure Ciphas you can agree there, those people who sell at 35f simply want to abuse others and get as much gold in their pockets as possible...I hazard no guess that Balerion complained considering he likes throwing two stat foods on Fenian markets for 40f a piece.

I find it personally amusing that you all claim that you cannot make profits at Ciphas' level, if you are suggesting that, does this not show why Widu needs an open market? Because if other Kingdoms are making goods at a cheaper level and a faster rate than you, does this not suggest something in the line is wrong? Something is being produced inefficiently, or at too high a level? By closing off your market all you're doing is causing the market to stagnate, and that only hurts your citizens. Why is that? Well you seem to have completely ignored Alder, who through Ciphas get's cheap stat food, that can help him get stronger, and advance further in the world. If stat foods were like what Balerion wanted, it'd take you several years just to reach the second stage. Closing your markets stagnates growth, it weakens your position, and hurts your citizens, all through the abstract claim that by Ciphas selling slightly lower than you, your profits are severely weakened.
What I find funny about this argument is that - none of you - have shown 'why' none have you have given any evidence nor workings to why you must sell at a higher price. In fact if you did, you'd probably realize something was wrong and could fix it. The problem is not outside traders, the problem is something in the primary production line is effecting the production and therefore sale of goods.

To be honest Ciphas, this is not the end of the World, why? Because I am more than happy to purchase all the carcasses to feed my training solders, cheap carcasses and labour mean we can get people stronger, and advance our own lands further...That's what we've doing for a long-time now, and that's why we thrive. Yes parts of your trade will have to change and that is unfortunate, but at the end of the day, all it does is reveal the 'in it for ourselves' mentality of the supposed 'locals'.
So here's what i'll also draw up, I'll just embargo all Kiene citizens from selling on Fenian markets, anyone found doing so without my permission can have a fun day in Court.

I'm doing this as a reaction - yes - Why, because despite the recent conflicts between our lands I was always happy to trade, I know Ciphas had a lot of happy and content customers in Widu, and likewise I found good trade with Reaver from Widu, I was glad that kingdom conflicts would not damage greatly the free market which all sides endorsed, but clearly that is no longer the case, and for that reason I feel I must step in for my citizens. I'm happy to trade with Bravia, because like us they embrace free-market, and I am content to trade with those who seek to benefit all parties. That's all Ciphas tried to do, and clearly you've misunderstood that, and that is a shame.

All closed markets ever do is push prices up, stunt growth of young souls, and turn markets into ghost towns. Alas, your choices have consequences. Ciphas if you pass on your bills of trade and sale, we'll get things sorted for you.

[Silence]

Errm... I just wanna say, I am only one person like... If a load of people are against my view, fine. And hey King, I'm used teh bein ignored, nothing new.

Still, the thing here is, that it boils down teh, do we make Widu's market higher priced, or do we allow more competition and lower prices? Do we buy low or sell high?

The fact that the trader guy can charge such low prices... As a guy who bought the stuff, not made it, means that really, we should be able teh as well... Course, it won't work like that since things are just... Yeh know... Well, yeh probably don't... Ah, main problem is that nobody has farming skills here like, so raw materials are really high like.

Still, the problem from yer view like is that he puts loads of items onto the market too cheap. So, the answer? Would it be better if he charged more, didn't set such a low bar, and then got more for each sale? Can't see how more of pur money going teh him for each sale helps, but roughly the same would go right? People wouldn't buy as much of his stuff, they'd buy from others... Everyone but people who think that low prices are good is happy, which seems teh be most people.

Don't get me wrong, I done my fair share of selling things for higher than their worth... Klah mostly, just wait long enough and somebody'l buy if yeh make sure there ain't no competition (no I don't buy cheap ones and resell, just keep an eye on where high prices'l go), but that's me bein all selfish like. The opposite would be if I sold cheap and didn't take advantage of people needing stuff. Isn't that what the trader guy does?

Feel free teh ignore me though like.

[Drydan]

Oh wait so it is ok for him to dump all that on YOUR markets where YOUR citizens cannot make a profits from their fields or workshops?