To Be Free Trade Or Not To Be (Poll Question and Discusion)

[balerion]

He is one of their citizens after all. Besides only Fenia typically has items at those prices anyway. As far as 3 stat food is concerned I have no issue as I have always had to make contracts to produce my own.

Zuan a privately arranged trade with someone who hasn't picked something up yet is hardly something to base anything on. I have never sold 2 stat food higher than ~17 when cork was paying that amount.

[Rieron]

I wasn't thinking about making an appearance here because frankly this was a decision that many Kienians took, not just one person and it is also a work in progress as the people from the town council have already stated if I am not mistaken. I, myself, have heard from a few citizens complaining about being undercutted because of outside traders unloading a mass of items. One of the citizens that I recall the most recently, which I wouldn't mention name, even told me he was considering leaving Widu because his items could not sell. The items that produced with Kienian's wages were undercutted by a person from outside of Widu whom got the same items for a cheaper price from Fenia because Fenia has been manipulating their markets and labor ever since I came to these lands 2 and half years ago.

Basic economics 101: Cheaper labor tends to be one of the primary causes of cheaper goods. So when the Human, Ciphas, buys much cheaper items from Fenia then drops them in Kiene and Bravia's market it ends up with him still getting profit and also undercutting the workforce in both Kiene and in some cities in Bravia for those items. Now let me be very very clear on one thing; I know his intentions are good ones and I can understand his point of view but sometimes the actions can have consequences on others that one does not anticipate. Monopolizing foods or other resources is not something that benefits all completely; it benefits and favors the individual. That is not what Widu is about nor this law. This law as I explained before was about insourcing rather than outsourcing on the amount of products that are made. What they are doing is nothing that Fenia has not done or doesn't have written within their own laws under market manipulation. For Example:

I remember the time I was leaving Kiene after the volcano and I bought around 35 eggs from Fenia City market for myself, and the two people that were travelling with me through Fenia. I got pinned with market manipulation because apparently I was buying off all the eggs from the market that day. First of all, I highly doubt 35 eggs is all that FC had in its own stores but I did get charged with Market Manipulation under the reign of the Red Queen of Fenia (Scarlette). That was one time, the other time was when I placed only around 50 bottles of milk in the Imperius cheaper than the very expensive bottles they had there and was once again charged with market manipulation but not tried because I had already left Fenia by the time they could do the court case. THAT actually happened and THAT was actually the main reason why I was put on outlaw status.

Before anybody would call other governments or towns as Elitist do remember I have been in this lands a very long time and I do know a lot of what has happened during that time. Before any threats are made under the false pretence of protecting citizens do look in the mirror and the histories of your own government as well as their current laws before you point fingers. These laws DO NOT restrict "Private Trade", these laws restrict people dumping and in Ciphas case unknowingly manipulating the market by monopolizing the items in stock and cutting off the workforce. That might not been his intention at all but it still happened and citizens other than the Dragon (Balerion) complained.

I will say this now: Kiene will always be for the Kienians, as Fenia is for the Fenians, and as Bravia is for the Bravians. Kiene is only doing what others already done. Gearing itself for self-preservation and self-sustainment because as it turns out it is a lone city-state in between two giants that will always look out for themselves before anybody else to begin with. They are focusing on the whole of Widu not the individual. All the outside trader has to do is communicate..

Also I will mention after peace is concluded, deals can still be made between governments to facilitate certain needs and it can open more doors but again it will be through communication not by force.

[Reaver_Silverstone]

So much to respond too, I hate you all...

Right, firstly this law needs to be changed but not removed. Dumping law and market hoarding and market maniuplation are used in various towns or not, being applied is rare but they are there simply 'encase' a hoarding, an attempt at maniuplation or dumping happens.

Now Ciphas
-Personal trade's - shouldn't be applied to this law simply because it is an already agreed purchase via the two people.
- Vr Purchases - Arn't included in this either, they arn't town purchases but purchases made by VR. Only time you probbly would need to put it on the market for the vr is when I am not here to purchase it from you via grant and since the vr/fm would vouch for it you would not be affected by said law.
The only thing this law affects is long term items in vast quantities. e.i 100 or more milk, say 200 corn or 200 iron.

1. Traders may not place any goods upon the Widu market without written permission of the Towns Mayor . (I'd like this to remain, you can easily ask in advance what the mayor thinks the town needs, ive done so in the past with Duke, I asked what he had for sale, what he might need or i could sell in his market)
2. Excess of 10 units, per item, at any given time placed upon Widu market, will be deemed as dumping. ( units shoudl vary depending on the item, e.i food, equipment, raw compenant please give me some ideas on quanities, in the end it be what 'prevents' dumping)
3. Each individual outside trade placed upon Widu Market may run for 5 (five) consecutive days time in a row, then must be removed. ( change and Increase amount of days, or contact the mayor to state this item will remain again this only apply for long term goods, not personal trade or agreed items)
4. Any none citizen of the Viceroyalty of Kiene may not buy more than 5 days worth of food . ( Change possibly to - Any none citizen of the viceroyatly of kiene may purchase food however not empty out the entire market of said food. E.i corn is used to feed chickens so if there are 50 purchase say 30 so there is still enough for citizens to use up, ALSO you can also message people for personal trading, thus its agreed and it doesnt fall under said law.)
5. They may also not purchase wood, stone, or iron unless given permission by the legally elected mayor. Any creature breaking this law will be added to the Viceroyalties army kill list. (Now I already told you this 5 times Ciphas, this is an old rickfok council law when Kiene was still new and needed all resources.. that and rickfok was a bit extreme. The kill list has never been applied for this law and as I told you also, the vr council has already been working on the laws and this one has been removed from the new version but it is still being finalized.)



Examples of other town laws

Bravia city

Section IV: Market Manipulation

1. Any item which are sold at a higher price than what they was bought for may be charged with Market Manipulation. Mayors conducting official town or viceregal business are except. Those with contracts may be except if they provide the contract prior to sale to the elected Mayor. Punishment for violating this law may be up to twice the total amount of the offending market goods and up to 3 days in jail.
2. The stability of the town market is helped by keeping the prices of goods stable. It is prohibited for anyone to place on the Town Market of Bravia eggs for sale for more than 7 Freznics and corn for sale for more than 6 Freznics without the expressed written permission of the current elected Mayor. Punishment for violating this law may be up to twice the price of what the offender placed the item up on the market for and up to 3 days in jail.

Paz
A. TOWN MARKET LAWS
1. NO single person may purchase more than 25% of any product on the public or town markets without first contacting the Mayor. Once the Mayor is contacted this person must wait for a response before making purchases.
2. The Mayor has the right and authority to limit the wares that are purchased by someone from another town based on the current needs of the citizens of Paz.
3. Buying low and selling high on the same market is illegal.
4. Violation of any provisions of this article is considered a light crime and will result in fines and/or resititution of goods.

Fenia VR

Market Laws:
Market manipulation or any attempt by creatures to control the prices or availability of items on any market within the Realm of Fenia will not be tolerated. The willful weakening of the economic status of any town within Fenia will not be tolerated.

Mass buying of any item should be avoided. It is acceptable if about to travel, to buy up to a week’s worth of food. Whosoever shall buy any item, while selling the same type of item at the same time, or within seven days of the original purchase, especially for unreasonable personal gain, and/or to cause harm to others, shall be charged with Market Speculation, which is punishable by the courts.

Cork

MARKET LAWS:
Don't dump goods, gouge too badly, hoard too much or speculate (profit from buying & selling goods on our own market.)
Aside from that, Cork's market is free and anyone may buy & sell at whatever price they wish.

TRADERS & DEALS:
Cork LOVES active trade & traders. Welcome!
- If you're visiting Cork with a shopping list, goods to sell or a bulk deal in mind (or if you're planning a visit elsewhere) please contact the mayotroll.
We can help make your trip more pleasant and profitable.

TH BUYS & SELLS:
As a service to those who want quick cash, TH will buy goods posted at lower prices and resell or export them. You can offer goods to TH privately or openly on the market.
Cork's buying prices will change with market conditions and demand.

(Have to love logo )

As you can see ALL these laws 'COULD' restrict trade and thus meaning that all secfenian markets are not free officially. However again it is mostly to the mayors discretion. So what I'm trying to say, widu has such law to keep it covered like any other Town encase someone did abuse it. I mean for example when widu switched to bravia, if I'm not mistaken several fenians hoarded the widu market. There was no law protecting widu thus we couldn't persecute them for such.

This law was mostly to tell outsider traders 'you can trade, just don't fill the market with things we already have and are trying to sell. This harms say the citizens that are being beaten in price. But by all means sell what we do not have in stock ' but I also had said that in regards to market it shoudl be to the mayors discretion like cork and thus you'd need to contact the mayor and ask them about the market, what is needed, what is not etc. As any town mayor should do is protect the interest of the citizen first over that of an outside trader, by all means I know your intentions are good and this is why I listened to you and am partaking in this, the law does need to be modified to reflect only dumping and standaard market manipulation and hoarding to cover backsides encase say Zuan came into widu and haorded the entire market.

But for me it boils down to this, just ask the mayor for leaving items long term on the market. Personal trades are not affected by this law, vr trades are not affected by this law, TH trades are not affected by this law. Only large quanities left over for long periods of time is affect by said law. E.i as above 100 or more milk. This law won't affect any outside trader so long as they message the mayor to let them know, its as simple as that.

I don't tihnk I've covered everything but I'm trying.

[Reaver_Silverstone]

I won't vote, I'll abstain.

My view is simple, have laws to cover the town and its people encase someone did attempt to abuse it but not harshly apply them either, as I said to the mayors discretion.

[Suu_Nee]

It's my view that in almost all cases, markets tend to level themselves.

If there's a dearth in one place, and an abundance in another, then someone becomes a trader.

Funny thing about traders: so often when they bring real competition, they're either the heroes or the scourge of the earth.

So, they have to make a profit. We all do. If they can haul a lot of goods around, traveling a few days here, there, and again, they obviously have to be "paid" for those days travel somehow, and that's covered in the price of their goods. Which also includes the original cost of those goods.

When they can sell at a lower price than what the local producers can, then there IS a problem. Either they ARE dumping, or someone is greedy (trying to make too much), or maybe costs are far too high.

There's a tale told of a great kingdom that built a wall to keep out invaders. The wall worked for hundreds of years, but at a greater cost than the original cost of the wall in monies, goods and lives.

That great wall, which ran for thousands of miles, also kept out traders.

That kingdom fell. True, it did the trick, the invaders were kept out. But it also kept out traders and merchants.

I disagree with market laws. I have no tolerance for speculators. But market laws can be written all day long; making them sensible, enforceable, and practical is the question.

I voted, for free trade. I'll abide by the law. From now on, all harvest will be sold in 5 or 6 item increments.

[Calysta]

I'll abstain from voting but I'll say this:

No market in Secfenia is free. Widu was the last free market if the VR law is to be discounted, which it had been effectively since no cases were being brought forward.

Now, I am for a free market, but I understand the need to protect the market from manipulation. However, there is a difference between protecting the market with fair laws and stifling trade with over reaching laws.

I am afraid this law is an example of being over reaching. I'll explain as I did elsewhere:

The current law reads:

Each individual outside trade placed upon Kienian Markets may run for 5 consecutive days time in a row, then must be removed for 48 hours. All items removed must re-apply as it is deemed as a new trade.

Why if they already have permission from mayor, do they have to take it off? If they are proposing to put up too much - say 100 of item - the mayor can deny or tell them to only put up 20. Once they get mayor's permission, they shouldn't have to remove the item. This is overly harsh to traders because they do not always stay in town for 5 days, which means that the traders will have to worry about return in 5 days if their goods don't sell. If a trader is going on to Cork, Bravia City, then Paz that is at minimum a 6 day round trip. The 5 day rule would mess up their trading program. Once in Bravia, if their goods haven't sold, should they turn back to make it in time to remove goods off the market even though they still have 3 days left? What if they do turn back to remove the goods and by the time they return, their goods have been sold? Then they wasted 2 days traveling. Or what if they decided they still had three days and continued their trade route and ends up it doesn't sell.

The 5 day rule makes Widu a place where, if I were a trader, I would not do business here.

This is an example of where I see a problem with the current law. Reaver gave a list of things he thinks needs to be addressed, and I've also heard from others that they have concerns about the wording of the law.

The law does need revising. Anyone who doesn't think so need just look at the state of the market right now. Is it better or worse than from before the law was written?

I think the answer is clear.

[balerion]

It is also clear that many items not on the market now would have been produced if there had been a point to making them.

[Ceol]

I can only respond from my own perspective, because I didn't have time to read everything completely through.

The reason some of us citizens raised concern is not because we received goods from Ciphas at a fair price which there was to little of on our own market.
The reason was, in my personal case, the over 70 plucked chickens at minimum price. I know Ciphas comes every now and then with an abundance of cheap eggs. These eggs were cheap, but not minimum price. Us local chicken farmers still had room to drop our own prices so we could try to compete with Ciphas.
However, when over 70 plucked chickens appeared at 10 freznics, I couldn't do anything else but also drop to 10 freznics and hope someone would see my 10 chickens behind Ciphas pile of 70.
Eggs are bought by pretty much all citizens who aren't chicken farmers themselves. The market for plucked chickens is much smaller and it would take very long for all those 70 to be sold. I don't mind Ciphas bringing goods to our market, but if it's so much at once, at minimum price so there is no way for the locals to drop their own price even further and compete, I become concerned.

When Widu was low on eggs in the past I, and with me several others, invested in turning our field into a chicken field by request of the mayor. It feels unfair if we're now left unable to compete. And then I'm not talking about having to drop my prices, but having almost no opportunity to sell anymore in my personal case of the 70 plucked chickens at absolute minimum price. I'm not against trade, but I don't think it's necessary to dump so many goods at minimum price, you can also go a bit lower than the locals so there is room to compete. Just because prices are fair in Fenia doesn't mean they're fair prices here. I understood labour is more expensive here too which means the farmers already need to increase their price to be able to make a profit.

[Aingeal]

All I can say is this... Ciphas... Please bring me those cow carcasses... I'll pay you immediately for them!

And also this is why there is the anonymous button.... if you don't get caught... and no one reports you cause they like the cheap goods.... alls well that ends well.

[Calysta]

I understand there are some concerns about Ciphas' goods. But here's a question I've been wondering: Did anyone speak to Ciphas? And tell him there was a problem?

A lot have said Ciphas should have written the mayor; what about the mayor writing Ciphas?

I'm really curious as to this answer.

(Also, anonymous doesn't mean you won't be found out. Once the item is bought, the person is revealed, is she not?)