Morghain for the last several months has gone to painstaking efforts to keep our economy well balanced and ensure we are all focused on the items we need. Ive perhaps seen a bit more of this then some as my tenure as Finance Minister. She is quick to track down items we are lacking, and quick to notify us of our needs as a community. But one person cannot and should not be responsible for everything. We have an ailing market which she has been managing like a champ, but to many of the items are coming from the town hall.
We have fields backed up like a caravan under siege. As of late Ive noticed anyone whom does not hire for 22 or more Freznics must wait several days to get a laborer. Wages here are going up and up and yet less and less of these items are even making it to our market. Not to mention with the current market prices being compared with the current labor expenses some of our farmers will be selling at a LOSE! This is absolutely unacceptable to our producers that they are being bled dry by both the market and the labor pool.
Further more why are fields that are posted at 18-21 Freznics going ignored for so long? Some workshops will actually be netting you less income right now based on current market conditions! A perfect example......with current costs I stand to net 15.50 Freznics in profit from each axe Im currently forging, vs the 20-25 Freznics I could apparently make by working a field?
Are we to good to work the fields now? Are we to greedy to work cheaply?
Do not act as if this is normal either as I know for a fact, having been informed by several Fenian City Residents, that the average labor expense for field work in Fenia is anywhere from 15-18 Freznics and they have no trouble obtaining laborers. More and more of our goods are starting to come from town hall, which in turn is bringing them in from the VR and the other towns. This in turn means more and more of our towns economy is being depleted and our money will start leaving the town and going to these other locations.
So heres what we need to discuss. Why are fields being forced to hire so high? Why are goods not reaching our market? Is our labor pool greedy or incredibly small? And what are we going to do to preserve our towns economy?
We are the capital, and we have some of the highest town spirit in Fenia. We cant let our economy be in shambles! Let it be the best of the best!
[ICNRP]The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion)
Moderator: Community Team
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Lethe
Re: The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion)
Okay, I think your ignoring the fact that there is a labour shortage and that it is not greed. Labour shortage drives the price up. Not greed. So you have to fix that problem, and how to fix it? You cannot, unless you get more people into the town.
Frankly the people shortage which in turn is also driving the market shortages, can be fixed perhaps by Zachrin allowing for more produce to be gained from the fields. Or atleast making them more consistent, I sometimes get 10 wheat or 16 wheat, 6 wheat difference is a lot. I am not sure if this is what is supposed to happen either.
At the moment I do not understand why ppl arent running their own fields, the lack of 2nd level goods tells me that people are not running their workshops, so what are they doing? Because currently its a sellers market out there right now - ie if you produce or make goods you are garunteed to sell your goods. So perhaps Morghain can run with that theme, if you post it, it will sell. ^^
Personally, I run a wheat field and a corn field, I switched to wheat when Morghain asked for people to consider wheat as a field, and kept one corn field to feed myself. I cant afford the prices for the stat foods on the market, either. That is where the prices need to be lowered back to what they were before, their is no reason for that price, I think they were making alot with prices at 14 as it was. But that will not change if people buy it, either ^^ . I am a carpentar who takes my obligations to have atleast 1 of every good I can produce on the market, if not more, if I can manage it.
Now, after all that, honestly the economy and the market is going to be driven and propped up by Morghain (or the town mayor) whichever town we are in, so what she is doing is not only necessary, but the way it is. So rather than look at her role or her job as one that she shouldnt be doing, maybe we should look at it, as how Mayors need to operate in the current conditions that we find ourselves. Lack of people, lack of produce, lack, lack, lack.
Morghain is doing exactly the best thing she can do, by having the town provide for the goods that it does, and any other goods that are lacking. A few other things she can do is keep her mailing up, keep her messages short and to the point. Plus perhaps encourage one person of each trade to do as I am and producing 1 of each item of theirs for the market and to always keep them stocked.
Field wise, the only thing to do is do what I do, and thats work my field myself, because corn especially, you cannot make money from that at the present wage demand.
Frankly the people shortage which in turn is also driving the market shortages, can be fixed perhaps by Zachrin allowing for more produce to be gained from the fields. Or atleast making them more consistent, I sometimes get 10 wheat or 16 wheat, 6 wheat difference is a lot. I am not sure if this is what is supposed to happen either.
At the moment I do not understand why ppl arent running their own fields, the lack of 2nd level goods tells me that people are not running their workshops, so what are they doing? Because currently its a sellers market out there right now - ie if you produce or make goods you are garunteed to sell your goods. So perhaps Morghain can run with that theme, if you post it, it will sell. ^^
Personally, I run a wheat field and a corn field, I switched to wheat when Morghain asked for people to consider wheat as a field, and kept one corn field to feed myself. I cant afford the prices for the stat foods on the market, either. That is where the prices need to be lowered back to what they were before, their is no reason for that price, I think they were making alot with prices at 14 as it was. But that will not change if people buy it, either ^^ . I am a carpentar who takes my obligations to have atleast 1 of every good I can produce on the market, if not more, if I can manage it.
Now, after all that, honestly the economy and the market is going to be driven and propped up by Morghain (or the town mayor) whichever town we are in, so what she is doing is not only necessary, but the way it is. So rather than look at her role or her job as one that she shouldnt be doing, maybe we should look at it, as how Mayors need to operate in the current conditions that we find ourselves. Lack of people, lack of produce, lack, lack, lack.
Morghain is doing exactly the best thing she can do, by having the town provide for the goods that it does, and any other goods that are lacking. A few other things she can do is keep her mailing up, keep her messages short and to the point. Plus perhaps encourage one person of each trade to do as I am and producing 1 of each item of theirs for the market and to always keep them stocked.
Field wise, the only thing to do is do what I do, and thats work my field myself, because corn especially, you cannot make money from that at the present wage demand.
Re: The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion)
Before I start I just want to quote some things from Zach that were discussed in the suggestion area about the same problem effecting Imperius and other towns, and these were the average statistics for each town and their field wages on offer:
So for all of that, we have 52 Citizens, over half are level 2+, and are more likely to be focused on the upper tier arts of their workshops, or the university, than field work. Which is normally the 'bread and butter' earnings for the Level 0's and 1's and under a third of our population is in that region, and even then we have an output of 64 fields, so the point is, we lack the lower level population to fill these roles, because honestly level 2's and 3's can gain higher incomes from their professions provided they have the materials, and so are unlikely to take the 20-21f jobs in place of their workshops. So whilst there is NOT a population shortage, there is infact a shortage of lower level citizens, who traditionally fill those roles.
As for the wages on the Fields being high, I would not say 20-21 is 'high' considering that the mines pay a daily output of '19' each for 9 people. So really by working on someone’s field you are only making '1-2f' profit over working in the mines. Combined with this the mines also have a small chance at dropping gems, which could boost your daily wage to well over 300f if you gain a gem, which is far more enticing than a guaranteed extra '1-2f' you would get on your field (You would need to work 150 days w/o gaining a gem to lose out on this deal) so really wages in comparison to the other jobs in the area which are all go from 19-25f the fields are actually the 'middle ground' in terms of our towns earnings, and so whilst they might be 'high' in comparison to Fenia or Bravia, it is important to remember we have a different economy to them, in terms of our unique high population, being a wood town, and the high number of level 2+'s.
Some good news however, again from the topic I pulled up last time:
Now onto what WE as a town can do:
Firstly Lorth, you pointed out for an axe you will make a net profit of 15.50, whilst I am not sure on the 'costs' of labour and materials, if you are not the only one like this then I see no reason why our field job number can be so high, in terms of level 2 jobs, which would make me assume you may be in the minority in terms of Workshop profits being lower than field work. However it is a simple factor, that if you make less than the average field wage of 20-21f then the field jobs are certainly for you. If you make more then I guess it is difficult to argue against losing money by taking fields over your own profession apart from 'civic duty' for the town.
Secondly, possibly we can pull this into a town event, competition, lottery whatever you wish to call it, in which we can incorporate taking field jobs, perhaps each field job is a 'ticket' in a lottery, and the winner might gain extra money or items, this would help encourage those who focus on their workshop, or those who take the gamble of the mines and gems, to work on at least a few fields each week.
Perhaps here is the most simple solution...if your field is up there for 3 or 4 days+ then take it down, and work it yourself, there is nothing stopping you from taking down the advert, and working your own field to help the market shift, it is a very simple solution, and depending on fields and cycles it would still give you time each week to study, work your other profession, or do other jobs in the town and VR.
The simple fact of the matter is this issue has been created out of a very unique situation in the town, however the solution is simple, and that is all of us just getting our hands dirty in our own, and others fields, because with alot of effort from everyone, we can have the field glut cleared in a day, as our population is triple our average field job number.
So what are we waiting for? Pick up some tools and lets get to work.
As we can see from This Imperius was the highest with 15(now 17) jobs with the third highest wage budget, and so logically should not be at such a high rate of fields needing work. What needs to be remembered in this, is that on top of the field jobs, we have the daily jobs regarding the VR the town, and other areas of office in town, and so this does boost up our overall town job count to anything from 18-21 a day. Combined with that is 9 jobs in the mine to make 27-30 Jobs a day, along with 34 People who are level 2 or above, and so can also work in their workshops, and on top of that we have the three daily university subjects which all require teachers and students and so that again includes the 34 people with workshops. Then as you stated Lorth we have the forest for wood chopping....Bravia: 2 (18 f)
Paz: 10 (18 - 22 f)
Fenia: 3 (18 f)
Widu: 4 (20 f)
Cork: 9 (18 - 25 f)
Imperius: 15 (20 - 21 f)
So for all of that, we have 52 Citizens, over half are level 2+, and are more likely to be focused on the upper tier arts of their workshops, or the university, than field work. Which is normally the 'bread and butter' earnings for the Level 0's and 1's and under a third of our population is in that region, and even then we have an output of 64 fields, so the point is, we lack the lower level population to fill these roles, because honestly level 2's and 3's can gain higher incomes from their professions provided they have the materials, and so are unlikely to take the 20-21f jobs in place of their workshops. So whilst there is NOT a population shortage, there is infact a shortage of lower level citizens, who traditionally fill those roles.
As for the wages on the Fields being high, I would not say 20-21 is 'high' considering that the mines pay a daily output of '19' each for 9 people. So really by working on someone’s field you are only making '1-2f' profit over working in the mines. Combined with this the mines also have a small chance at dropping gems, which could boost your daily wage to well over 300f if you gain a gem, which is far more enticing than a guaranteed extra '1-2f' you would get on your field (You would need to work 150 days w/o gaining a gem to lose out on this deal) so really wages in comparison to the other jobs in the area which are all go from 19-25f the fields are actually the 'middle ground' in terms of our towns earnings, and so whilst they might be 'high' in comparison to Fenia or Bravia, it is important to remember we have a different economy to them, in terms of our unique high population, being a wood town, and the high number of level 2+'s.
Some good news however, again from the topic I pulled up last time:
What this means is for every day we have 14+ jobs, 2 are guaranteed to be removed by peasants, obviously this means the money will disappear from our economy, but what it does mean is 2 extra jobs will be taken, and until we hit a low of '6' field jobs, the peasants will continue to take jobs for us, and so the stem of the large number of jobs should slowly decline, now we have a guaranteed extra two labourers, and at the very least will mean our economy will start shifting again.Zachrin wrote:While some areas have other jobs which are taking up slots that could be used to work fields, the towns with the least amount of open jobs appear to not have any of those other jobs available. A slight tweak has been made to the Peasants code in which for every 7 field jobs up, a peasant may take 1. This should help reduce some of the time that some fields’ jobs are up. I'll be keeping an eye on this for possible further tweaking.
Now onto what WE as a town can do:
Firstly Lorth, you pointed out for an axe you will make a net profit of 15.50, whilst I am not sure on the 'costs' of labour and materials, if you are not the only one like this then I see no reason why our field job number can be so high, in terms of level 2 jobs, which would make me assume you may be in the minority in terms of Workshop profits being lower than field work. However it is a simple factor, that if you make less than the average field wage of 20-21f then the field jobs are certainly for you. If you make more then I guess it is difficult to argue against losing money by taking fields over your own profession apart from 'civic duty' for the town.
Secondly, possibly we can pull this into a town event, competition, lottery whatever you wish to call it, in which we can incorporate taking field jobs, perhaps each field job is a 'ticket' in a lottery, and the winner might gain extra money or items, this would help encourage those who focus on their workshop, or those who take the gamble of the mines and gems, to work on at least a few fields each week.
Perhaps here is the most simple solution...if your field is up there for 3 or 4 days+ then take it down, and work it yourself, there is nothing stopping you from taking down the advert, and working your own field to help the market shift, it is a very simple solution, and depending on fields and cycles it would still give you time each week to study, work your other profession, or do other jobs in the town and VR.
The simple fact of the matter is this issue has been created out of a very unique situation in the town, however the solution is simple, and that is all of us just getting our hands dirty in our own, and others fields, because with alot of effort from everyone, we can have the field glut cleared in a day, as our population is triple our average field job number.
So what are we waiting for? Pick up some tools and lets get to work.
High King of The Fenians - Brother to Dahlia, Ambra, Trinity, Sera & Zhou
Re: The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion)
While many may not like my saying so there is something that should be pointed out pertaining to such. The towne militia and castle militia have a great impact upon the labor market. When I was Mayor of Bravia I addressed the labor shortage by lowering the hiring cost of the towne militia that the labor market was able to be rebalanced before returning it to the norms. There is currently a contract between the Capital City of Bravia and the Castle to supply an amount of stone to encourage a well maintained militia.Lethe wrote:Okay, I think your ignoring the fact that there is a labour shortage and that it is not greed. Labour shortage drives the price up. Not greed. So you have to fix that problem, and how to fix it? You cannot, unless you get more people into the town.
Shaker of Castles
Order of the Pillow | Sunspear
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Aphrodite
Re: The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion)
Aphrodite frowned at the commotion. She joined the crowd and listened to know what was going on.
Reminder everyone. Please keep everything civil. I am going to tag this thread as ICNRP (In-Character Non-Role Play). However, I am assuming that everything here is IC and not OOC.
Thank you very much.
In service,
Elder Aphrodite
Reminder everyone. Please keep everything civil. I am going to tag this thread as ICNRP (In-Character Non-Role Play). However, I am assuming that everything here is IC and not OOC.Thank you very much.
In service,
Elder Aphrodite
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Lorthem
Re: [ICNRP]The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion
(OOC: Just want to say everyone the initial post is intended to spur people into discussion by upsetting them into the element. It worked a bit as I got two really well thought out responses! No harm was meant by it, so if anyone did take offense to anything said therein I do apologize. Even know this was mainly trended towards the field issues we are having its going to be an economic discussion in general so deviate from the fields if you have bits to say on other matters.)
First off Id like to say that this is meant to be a civil discussion so our dear Elders have nothing to fear. The heat of the original note was meant to try and spur people into a rather imperative economic discussion that really does need to be discussed as a community. Nothing following that is meant to get heated in any form, and hopefully as we go along we can get some more people joining us here. This isnt just my wish as I did open this discussion after speaking with our beloved Mayor briefly about the market and fields.
Secondly Id like to thank Lethe and Zuan for their very well spoken and thought out words. Im glad to see the two of you really contributing to the discussion and with hope as a community we can improve our field issues, which in turn effect the market. Additionally thanks to Balerion for his input on the matter, as this may have a minor effect on the price range.
Now Im going to work down through the comments and thoughts so if I miss anything feel free to yell at me for skipping it.
Lethe do I truly think Imperiusians are greedy? No. Note that with exception to I believe once, every time I mentioned greed it was in question form. Do I believe we are having a few people that at times take advantage of our situation? YES I totally do! Now as for the labor pool. Is it shallow, yes. I was, for a period, believing this to be our problem as well. But after further review of the market Im not quite sure if this is our CORE problem. We operate on a supply and demand system, with very minimal deviation from that standard economic setup. Thusly if we have a shallow labor pool the demand for workers would increase which in turn should cause the wages to go up. That part HAS happened. But the fallout from this should be that our market is filled with somewhat more costly goods. Yet our market is in a radical state of decline. This in part can be contributed to the obvious factor of not having the workers to produce all the goods we need yes, but it seems with each harvest less and less reaches our market. This is part of the greed theory as it makes one wonder if we are either in a radical state of under production, or are items being hoarded? Again a question, Im not claiming anyone to be greedy its just a thought.
One of my biggest concerns with the spike in labor expense but stagnation of market pricing is that newer residents will be highly impacted by this. They hire at a high rate in order to get their fields worked (as well as getting the points they need), but are trying to sell at a competitive rate with what they see on the market. Most of which is based priced goods. Why are prices almost never fluctuating? I understand price caps and everything but the fact is the prices should be going up along with everything else to accommodate the difference that is lost from higher wages. I know Im going to get hated on for that, but its a simple fact. It should be in a state of gradual flux, not a state of pandemic decline.
Its all fine and dandy that Morghain is doing her job as a Mayor and helping to balance and maintain the market of her town. But you fail to see the critical issue here. Morghain made it clear in her last newsletter, and I find myself agreeing. More and more of the towns market is being based on the Town Hall. Some might see this as good that she is doing what she needs to. But you fail to recognize the long lasting repercussions this will have on our market. We cannot be dependent on the town hall, whom for many items, is dependent on Fenia, Widu, and the VR. Where will this put us if say our entire corn market was based through town hall whom in turn was supplied by Fenia and Widu. Now say that Fenia and Widu began suffering massive shortages and could barely keep up with the VR demands for fodder and maintain the needed numbers for their town. Where would that put Imperius? (Bravia is virtually not an option because in a critical crisis we wouldnt have time to go without for several days waiting for a trade shipment) We have to learn to be self sufficient, even if we do not believe we have the numbers. There is ways to work around the labor issues, we just have to think clearly on it. Perhaps work rotations between the forest, fields, and workshops. It would still be a very low production rate but if people focused on such a clear cut pattern it would help keep the fields producing, and goods flowing. Albeit in very small numbers, but a small steady flow is better then a bare minimum erratic flow. That or we could perhaps begin a heavy town wide donation regiment? In order to supply the town hall with an array of various goods to ensure they are there for when we do need them. Say one bag of corn, or wheat per harvest? Its not as if we are really making any money off of selling them right now anyways.
Lethe you pointed out exactly the problem with our fields by saying that corn isnt a profit. Chickens (granted I wasnt selling the eggs because I was juggling, so Id probably have cleared about 12 profit Freznics per chicken on that last cycle I did before changing it) were barely getting me my money back after a full cycle due to staggering health issues and expenses. Ive absolutely no problem with the higher wages, but the market needs to start reflecting this. If we are going to keep prices low then wage expenses need to drop labor issues or not. Its totally unreasonable for someone to pay 22-25 Freznics for a corn field which is barely netting a profit right now with lower wages! This is part of why corn as a commodity for our town is constantly in shortage. No one can make a profit, and therefore many are moving to other options.
First off Id like to point out that while working in the mines is an excellent source of income, we could effectively not do so for a week and it would have no effect on the economy of the VR. Especially given our needs in other areas. Do I advise this? No I do not, because at this time the mines are one of the few sources bringing money into Imperius via the payments to the miners from the VR coffers. In fact most town money in being shipped out to other towns with Morghain netting what little profit she can on imports to allow her to keep up with the strain the market is undoubtedly placing on her. With exception to fodder, wood, and the occasional finished goods almost nothing is EXPORTED from Imperius. The mines are one of the few major income sources we have at this time so we cant afford to sacrifice our labor pool there either. It might also be worth noting there has been a steady decline in fodder stores in Imperius. At the start of my tenure as Finance Minister the town of Imperius was the leading fodder supplier for the Viceroyalty. At the end of my tenure it was second behind Fenia City, with Widu starting to match the numbers on several days. How it has fared the last two weeks I cannot say. That shows the economic decline we have suffered in the last two to three months.
Zuan I am not complaining about the wages Ill be making in my workshop. I was merely using it as a reference. I am currently producing items that are in need by the town, or else I would otherwise be working the fields as Ive done every day that Im not working the forest up until I opened my workshop a few days ago. I try to work wherever Morghain informs me we are in the most need of and bounce back and forth as often as I can. For me its not about making money, because if it was I would not be working my forge, I would let my fields go fallow, and I would be taking those nice 23 and up Freznic field jobs or be working in the forest which is a good source of income. Im more concerned with getting what we need and could care less that Im making 15 Freznics. In fact if what I was making wasnt going to be in turn sold to town hall to help bring in some more cash flow I could probably make about 20 Freznics on the market vs 15.50. Im selling less to assist the town. Its just a reference though for the purpose of the point I was attempting to exude.
Unfortunately Zuan as I believe Ive mentioned earlier, taking the job posting down to do yourself isnt really an option for new residents. Many of whom will be scrapping the bottom of their coin purse daily and cant really afford a high wage, or work it themselves lest they be broke the next day. (Most would like to progress in the game and earn their points by hiring people.) The fact is its more profitable, or it should be more profitable, to hire a laborer. But when we arent getting the flux we need on the market its causing a painful bleeding effect for the farmers, and in turn those whom own shops and are dependent on those raw materials.
I hope that this posting will clear up some of the issues Im trying to share. Ive seen some very good ideas from Lethe and Zuan so far, and I think both can be used to help our situation to a degree. But lets continue discussing and see if anyone has a spark of magical genius to make all the badness melt away.
First off Id like to say that this is meant to be a civil discussion so our dear Elders have nothing to fear. The heat of the original note was meant to try and spur people into a rather imperative economic discussion that really does need to be discussed as a community. Nothing following that is meant to get heated in any form, and hopefully as we go along we can get some more people joining us here. This isnt just my wish as I did open this discussion after speaking with our beloved Mayor briefly about the market and fields.
Secondly Id like to thank Lethe and Zuan for their very well spoken and thought out words. Im glad to see the two of you really contributing to the discussion and with hope as a community we can improve our field issues, which in turn effect the market. Additionally thanks to Balerion for his input on the matter, as this may have a minor effect on the price range.
Now Im going to work down through the comments and thoughts so if I miss anything feel free to yell at me for skipping it.
Lethe do I truly think Imperiusians are greedy? No. Note that with exception to I believe once, every time I mentioned greed it was in question form. Do I believe we are having a few people that at times take advantage of our situation? YES I totally do! Now as for the labor pool. Is it shallow, yes. I was, for a period, believing this to be our problem as well. But after further review of the market Im not quite sure if this is our CORE problem. We operate on a supply and demand system, with very minimal deviation from that standard economic setup. Thusly if we have a shallow labor pool the demand for workers would increase which in turn should cause the wages to go up. That part HAS happened. But the fallout from this should be that our market is filled with somewhat more costly goods. Yet our market is in a radical state of decline. This in part can be contributed to the obvious factor of not having the workers to produce all the goods we need yes, but it seems with each harvest less and less reaches our market. This is part of the greed theory as it makes one wonder if we are either in a radical state of under production, or are items being hoarded? Again a question, Im not claiming anyone to be greedy its just a thought.
One of my biggest concerns with the spike in labor expense but stagnation of market pricing is that newer residents will be highly impacted by this. They hire at a high rate in order to get their fields worked (as well as getting the points they need), but are trying to sell at a competitive rate with what they see on the market. Most of which is based priced goods. Why are prices almost never fluctuating? I understand price caps and everything but the fact is the prices should be going up along with everything else to accommodate the difference that is lost from higher wages. I know Im going to get hated on for that, but its a simple fact. It should be in a state of gradual flux, not a state of pandemic decline.
Its all fine and dandy that Morghain is doing her job as a Mayor and helping to balance and maintain the market of her town. But you fail to see the critical issue here. Morghain made it clear in her last newsletter, and I find myself agreeing. More and more of the towns market is being based on the Town Hall. Some might see this as good that she is doing what she needs to. But you fail to recognize the long lasting repercussions this will have on our market. We cannot be dependent on the town hall, whom for many items, is dependent on Fenia, Widu, and the VR. Where will this put us if say our entire corn market was based through town hall whom in turn was supplied by Fenia and Widu. Now say that Fenia and Widu began suffering massive shortages and could barely keep up with the VR demands for fodder and maintain the needed numbers for their town. Where would that put Imperius? (Bravia is virtually not an option because in a critical crisis we wouldnt have time to go without for several days waiting for a trade shipment) We have to learn to be self sufficient, even if we do not believe we have the numbers. There is ways to work around the labor issues, we just have to think clearly on it. Perhaps work rotations between the forest, fields, and workshops. It would still be a very low production rate but if people focused on such a clear cut pattern it would help keep the fields producing, and goods flowing. Albeit in very small numbers, but a small steady flow is better then a bare minimum erratic flow. That or we could perhaps begin a heavy town wide donation regiment? In order to supply the town hall with an array of various goods to ensure they are there for when we do need them. Say one bag of corn, or wheat per harvest? Its not as if we are really making any money off of selling them right now anyways.
Lethe you pointed out exactly the problem with our fields by saying that corn isnt a profit. Chickens (granted I wasnt selling the eggs because I was juggling, so Id probably have cleared about 12 profit Freznics per chicken on that last cycle I did before changing it) were barely getting me my money back after a full cycle due to staggering health issues and expenses. Ive absolutely no problem with the higher wages, but the market needs to start reflecting this. If we are going to keep prices low then wage expenses need to drop labor issues or not. Its totally unreasonable for someone to pay 22-25 Freznics for a corn field which is barely netting a profit right now with lower wages! This is part of why corn as a commodity for our town is constantly in shortage. No one can make a profit, and therefore many are moving to other options.
First off Id like to point out that while working in the mines is an excellent source of income, we could effectively not do so for a week and it would have no effect on the economy of the VR. Especially given our needs in other areas. Do I advise this? No I do not, because at this time the mines are one of the few sources bringing money into Imperius via the payments to the miners from the VR coffers. In fact most town money in being shipped out to other towns with Morghain netting what little profit she can on imports to allow her to keep up with the strain the market is undoubtedly placing on her. With exception to fodder, wood, and the occasional finished goods almost nothing is EXPORTED from Imperius. The mines are one of the few major income sources we have at this time so we cant afford to sacrifice our labor pool there either. It might also be worth noting there has been a steady decline in fodder stores in Imperius. At the start of my tenure as Finance Minister the town of Imperius was the leading fodder supplier for the Viceroyalty. At the end of my tenure it was second behind Fenia City, with Widu starting to match the numbers on several days. How it has fared the last two weeks I cannot say. That shows the economic decline we have suffered in the last two to three months.
Zuan I am not complaining about the wages Ill be making in my workshop. I was merely using it as a reference. I am currently producing items that are in need by the town, or else I would otherwise be working the fields as Ive done every day that Im not working the forest up until I opened my workshop a few days ago. I try to work wherever Morghain informs me we are in the most need of and bounce back and forth as often as I can. For me its not about making money, because if it was I would not be working my forge, I would let my fields go fallow, and I would be taking those nice 23 and up Freznic field jobs or be working in the forest which is a good source of income. Im more concerned with getting what we need and could care less that Im making 15 Freznics. In fact if what I was making wasnt going to be in turn sold to town hall to help bring in some more cash flow I could probably make about 20 Freznics on the market vs 15.50. Im selling less to assist the town. Its just a reference though for the purpose of the point I was attempting to exude.
Unfortunately Zuan as I believe Ive mentioned earlier, taking the job posting down to do yourself isnt really an option for new residents. Many of whom will be scrapping the bottom of their coin purse daily and cant really afford a high wage, or work it themselves lest they be broke the next day. (Most would like to progress in the game and earn their points by hiring people.) The fact is its more profitable, or it should be more profitable, to hire a laborer. But when we arent getting the flux we need on the market its causing a painful bleeding effect for the farmers, and in turn those whom own shops and are dependent on those raw materials.
I hope that this posting will clear up some of the issues Im trying to share. Ive seen some very good ideas from Lethe and Zuan so far, and I think both can be used to help our situation to a degree. But lets continue discussing and see if anyone has a spark of magical genius to make all the badness melt away.
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Lethe
Re: [ICNRP]The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion
(I hope I did not offend anyone, because I read back everyones comments and cannot see who was supposed to offend what, so maybe it was me. >>).
Lorthem, its fine, I might have over emphasised on the greed part, but it was not due to my thinking you were calling anyone greedy, I think your questions and concerns merited a response due the geniune concern that you display regards this issue. All in all I think Zuan and you show a far more complex and better understanding of the situation than I do. As to the reason why people hire and yet there is no produce making it to the market, well, all I have in ancedotal evidence. I have a friend who lives here, and since you started this conversation, I have begun to buy his corn and sell it on the market, because he's a hoarder, but not a hoarder in the sense that he is greedy, rather that he is apathetic to the market conditions, and doesnt need the money so doesnt bother keeping up with selling. So now I run both his and my fields in the sense that I remind him every 8 days or so to sell to me, so I can sell to the market, and he keeps his other field for his personal supply. Do not ask me why he doesnt just sell on the market, but this is how he feels most comfortable and he charges me what it costs him to actually produce his goods, so there is no under selling. Is the situation then, different for each person that runs feilds? Instead of a blanket explanation, will there be a percentage that are apathetic, a percentage that are hoarders and greedy, a percentage of..lord knows what?. ^^ Perhaps an individual case by case scenario and a few of us doing whatever it takes to get them to sell on the market, or take the responsibility from those that are apathetic and making, ie, I buy his goods, he no longer has to care about if they sell on the market, his job is over, and I carry on? It may make a difference?
As for me, I have been hoarding eggs since I used to live in spirus I think thats where I used to live ^^, and thats because eggs could get hard to come by, and I wanted to have enough of a supply for when I managed to make it to level 3. I have unwillingly put them on the market at a price that if they sold, the loss of the convenience of having them would be worth the price. I did not expect them to sell at all, but I felt compelled not to hoard them any longer due the market concerns over lack of eggs. However, they are selling too, :/ even though their much dearer than those the town hall has them on the market for. with the amount of chickens on the market, memory serves me that their must be atleast 100 eggs per chicken rancher in their kitty, unless their just selling that fast?
Now, that said, I have put goods on the market for what they cost to make and they are selling. I think the wheat situation is starting to look better, so whatever has happened there is starting to stabilise that. Now the corn and egg market needs to reflect the costs, so my advice really would be to charge the prices they should be. Even the Town Hall (who has asked by the way for people to sell them at a price that is no longer affordable) should be raising its prices to reflect what the market is, not what they bought the goods for. Due the TH being the biggest supplier, it too is prolly also ensuring that prices are staying too low. So perhaps talk to Morghain into putting her prices up?
Now as for donations, 1 item per harvest wouldnt be so bad, as long as people were able to sell at the right price on their market to deflect the cost of that. Mostly it might be an individual thing, Morghain sends mass mails, however, her mass mail made no impact on my friend who now sells his corn to me, so we come back to, what about individually working on a plan with other individuals? Not targeting everyone in the town, but enough people who run fields in the areas that we need it most, that we can secure those areas or the market that need it most. Even with just my friends corn, its made a difference to the market and introduced another steady supplier. If you see what I am getting at? In order to secure corn better, possibly only need another 3 suppliers, and 4 to begin to build up supplies again.
Lorthem, its fine, I might have over emphasised on the greed part, but it was not due to my thinking you were calling anyone greedy, I think your questions and concerns merited a response due the geniune concern that you display regards this issue. All in all I think Zuan and you show a far more complex and better understanding of the situation than I do. As to the reason why people hire and yet there is no produce making it to the market, well, all I have in ancedotal evidence. I have a friend who lives here, and since you started this conversation, I have begun to buy his corn and sell it on the market, because he's a hoarder, but not a hoarder in the sense that he is greedy, rather that he is apathetic to the market conditions, and doesnt need the money so doesnt bother keeping up with selling. So now I run both his and my fields in the sense that I remind him every 8 days or so to sell to me, so I can sell to the market, and he keeps his other field for his personal supply. Do not ask me why he doesnt just sell on the market, but this is how he feels most comfortable and he charges me what it costs him to actually produce his goods, so there is no under selling. Is the situation then, different for each person that runs feilds? Instead of a blanket explanation, will there be a percentage that are apathetic, a percentage that are hoarders and greedy, a percentage of..lord knows what?. ^^ Perhaps an individual case by case scenario and a few of us doing whatever it takes to get them to sell on the market, or take the responsibility from those that are apathetic and making, ie, I buy his goods, he no longer has to care about if they sell on the market, his job is over, and I carry on? It may make a difference?
As for me, I have been hoarding eggs since I used to live in spirus I think thats where I used to live ^^, and thats because eggs could get hard to come by, and I wanted to have enough of a supply for when I managed to make it to level 3. I have unwillingly put them on the market at a price that if they sold, the loss of the convenience of having them would be worth the price. I did not expect them to sell at all, but I felt compelled not to hoard them any longer due the market concerns over lack of eggs. However, they are selling too, :/ even though their much dearer than those the town hall has them on the market for. with the amount of chickens on the market, memory serves me that their must be atleast 100 eggs per chicken rancher in their kitty, unless their just selling that fast?
Now, that said, I have put goods on the market for what they cost to make and they are selling. I think the wheat situation is starting to look better, so whatever has happened there is starting to stabilise that. Now the corn and egg market needs to reflect the costs, so my advice really would be to charge the prices they should be. Even the Town Hall (who has asked by the way for people to sell them at a price that is no longer affordable) should be raising its prices to reflect what the market is, not what they bought the goods for. Due the TH being the biggest supplier, it too is prolly also ensuring that prices are staying too low. So perhaps talk to Morghain into putting her prices up?
Now as for donations, 1 item per harvest wouldnt be so bad, as long as people were able to sell at the right price on their market to deflect the cost of that. Mostly it might be an individual thing, Morghain sends mass mails, however, her mass mail made no impact on my friend who now sells his corn to me, so we come back to, what about individually working on a plan with other individuals? Not targeting everyone in the town, but enough people who run fields in the areas that we need it most, that we can secure those areas or the market that need it most. Even with just my friends corn, its made a difference to the market and introduced another steady supplier. If you see what I am getting at? In order to secure corn better, possibly only need another 3 suppliers, and 4 to begin to build up supplies again.
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Lorthem
Re: [ICNRP]The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion
Thanks for the additional thoughts Lethe! It does give some more ideas to think with and you hit on a couple of things I had not thought of. Which is why its important to discuss these sort of problems as a community. First Ill mention the egg thing. Due to the recent and currently continued issues with animal health chickens are not producing as many eggs as they would when at their healthiest. This was actually one of the reasons I no longer rear chickens at this time as I was scrapping the bare minimum of profit. This is likely why you are experiencing a rapid sell on your eggs despite the price. As all animals come from the VR, and while health has improved there are still some weak animals being sold, this is likely somewhat of a VR wide shortage.
No as for the thought on fields you mentioned, Im glad to see you actually assisting with the economy by assisting with these goods reaching the market. The importance isnt how the goods get there, but that they do. Ideally of course I would personally like our market to be as self sufficient as possible on raw materials, and doing what your doing is a step in the right direction. I have placed my corn at a higher rate then usual, just as you have yours to help promote the idea of a higher price. As for the goods coming from Town Hall, yes they could be posted at a higher sell rate to encourage higher prices, but I believe Morghain is keeping the cost of these items down so as to not bleed the towns people, while still ensuring the town hall is making a small profit off of the goods shes bringing into town. This ensures that even though most of this money is going out of town for the trading, that the profit she makes is a gain for the community of Imperius as it allows for future investments, purchases, and sells. But Im not Morghain, so Im simply speculating. Perhaps she will stop by if she has some free time and give us her opinions on the matters.
I do see what you mean with the donation plan. Perhaps we can get a pledge sheet put together and have people sign it stating what they are willing to donate each week. This will also assist, as you said, with raising market prices to cover for the lose of the donated item. For the pledge sheet we could target so much wheat, corn, potatoes, eggs, etc. each week. Whomever signs the pledge sheet is pledging to donate whatever amount they state of whatever item each harvest. Although it would be slow going, even with just a few people like you said will be of great assistance in providing the town hall with a base to help maintain our market without over relying on trade.
Good ideas Lethe! I hope if you have any more thoughts youll continue to share them with us! To anyone else out there with thoughts, feel free to jump in and assist with making our capital self sufficient!
No as for the thought on fields you mentioned, Im glad to see you actually assisting with the economy by assisting with these goods reaching the market. The importance isnt how the goods get there, but that they do. Ideally of course I would personally like our market to be as self sufficient as possible on raw materials, and doing what your doing is a step in the right direction. I have placed my corn at a higher rate then usual, just as you have yours to help promote the idea of a higher price. As for the goods coming from Town Hall, yes they could be posted at a higher sell rate to encourage higher prices, but I believe Morghain is keeping the cost of these items down so as to not bleed the towns people, while still ensuring the town hall is making a small profit off of the goods shes bringing into town. This ensures that even though most of this money is going out of town for the trading, that the profit she makes is a gain for the community of Imperius as it allows for future investments, purchases, and sells. But Im not Morghain, so Im simply speculating. Perhaps she will stop by if she has some free time and give us her opinions on the matters.
I do see what you mean with the donation plan. Perhaps we can get a pledge sheet put together and have people sign it stating what they are willing to donate each week. This will also assist, as you said, with raising market prices to cover for the lose of the donated item. For the pledge sheet we could target so much wheat, corn, potatoes, eggs, etc. each week. Whomever signs the pledge sheet is pledging to donate whatever amount they state of whatever item each harvest. Although it would be slow going, even with just a few people like you said will be of great assistance in providing the town hall with a base to help maintain our market without over relying on trade.
Good ideas Lethe! I hope if you have any more thoughts youll continue to share them with us! To anyone else out there with thoughts, feel free to jump in and assist with making our capital self sufficient!
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Morghain
Re: [ICNRP]The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion
Thank you all so much for the amount of thought you have put into this discussion. Although I've up til now had the chance to stop and contribute myself, I've taken much pleasure in reading over the opinions voiced thus far. I'm especially pleased that you have not just settled for voicing your opinions but have begun exploring means of improving the situation. Thank you all very much
I'd just like to comment about the TH prices. When I came into the Town Hall, the prices at which goods were offered were much lower. In the hopes of encouraging more goods to be put up, better profit and such, I placed goods offered by the Town Hall up at higher prices than what were already there.
As I do not run many of the fields myself, I can only make assumptions about how much it costs to run said fields. If field owners and work shop owners are willing to sit down and discuss better prices, I am willing to make adjustments to the Town Hall prices to make allowance. I would ask though that you keep in mind that many of our lower levels can not afford items with too much of a markup on them so please be realistic about the prices you put on things. If someone is willing to co ordinate the production of a price list we can all work with, I would appreciate it. Discussions over pricing and such can be made either in this thread or in especially made ones as you wish. Obviously the price that the Town Hall buys things will alter with new selling prices.
I'd just like to comment about the TH prices. When I came into the Town Hall, the prices at which goods were offered were much lower. In the hopes of encouraging more goods to be put up, better profit and such, I placed goods offered by the Town Hall up at higher prices than what were already there.
As I do not run many of the fields myself, I can only make assumptions about how much it costs to run said fields. If field owners and work shop owners are willing to sit down and discuss better prices, I am willing to make adjustments to the Town Hall prices to make allowance. I would ask though that you keep in mind that many of our lower levels can not afford items with too much of a markup on them so please be realistic about the prices you put on things. If someone is willing to co ordinate the production of a price list we can all work with, I would appreciate it. Discussions over pricing and such can be made either in this thread or in especially made ones as you wish. Obviously the price that the Town Hall buys things will alter with new selling prices.
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Lethe
Re: [ICNRP]The Imperius Greed Epidemic? (A public discussion
With the opportunity to earn 19 in the mines and 20 plus on fields, I am not sure the newborns do not have the ability to afford a higher price at the market, especially when the people supplying may need to raise the prices to pay em.
As for prices, its really hard, depends on wages, depends on how much you get in yeild which can be low or high. Wages are what you would pay currentlly which is 20 to 21, or if you work them yourself and have a workshop what you would earn in a workshop if you wouldnt be working on the field, which is I think typically 25 yes? Corn and wheat both hire 3 times, plus need one of the good to get started. For yeilds look at the bottom.
This is using a workers wage of 20 (keep in mind thats hard to get right now - so more often than not ppl work their own field.):
Wheat = wages (3 x 20=60) + 10.20 = 70.20/amount of wheat harvested
70.20/10=7.02
70.20/16=4.38
70.20/20=3.51
Corn = wages (3 x 20= 60) + 3.50 = 63.50/amount of corn harvested
63.50/10 = 6.35
63.50/15 = 4.20
63.50/20 = 3.17
This is using a workshop wage (25):
Wheat = wages (3 x 25=75) + 10.20 = 85.20/amount of wheat harvested
85.20/10=8.52
85.20/16=5.325
85.20/20=4.26
Corn = wages (3 x 25=75) + 3.50 = 78/amount of corn harvested
78/10 = 7.80
78/15 = 5.20
78/20 = 3.90
_______________________________________
Jun 05, 1652 7:50 pm: You have harvested 20 corn from your field.
May 27, 1652 5:00 pm: You have harvested 17 corn from your field.
May 18, 1652 5:00 pm: You have harvested 10 corn from your field.
May 19, 1652 5:00 pm: You have harvested 16 wheat from your field.
May 31, 1652 5:00 pm: You have harvested 10 wheat from your field.
As for prices, its really hard, depends on wages, depends on how much you get in yeild which can be low or high. Wages are what you would pay currentlly which is 20 to 21, or if you work them yourself and have a workshop what you would earn in a workshop if you wouldnt be working on the field, which is I think typically 25 yes? Corn and wheat both hire 3 times, plus need one of the good to get started. For yeilds look at the bottom.
This is using a workers wage of 20 (keep in mind thats hard to get right now - so more often than not ppl work their own field.):
Wheat = wages (3 x 20=60) + 10.20 = 70.20/amount of wheat harvested
70.20/10=7.02
70.20/16=4.38
70.20/20=3.51
Corn = wages (3 x 20= 60) + 3.50 = 63.50/amount of corn harvested
63.50/10 = 6.35
63.50/15 = 4.20
63.50/20 = 3.17
This is using a workshop wage (25):
Wheat = wages (3 x 25=75) + 10.20 = 85.20/amount of wheat harvested
85.20/10=8.52
85.20/16=5.325
85.20/20=4.26
Corn = wages (3 x 25=75) + 3.50 = 78/amount of corn harvested
78/10 = 7.80
78/15 = 5.20
78/20 = 3.90
_______________________________________
Jun 05, 1652 7:50 pm: You have harvested 20 corn from your field.
May 27, 1652 5:00 pm: You have harvested 17 corn from your field.
May 18, 1652 5:00 pm: You have harvested 10 corn from your field.
May 19, 1652 5:00 pm: You have harvested 16 wheat from your field.
May 31, 1652 5:00 pm: You have harvested 10 wheat from your field.