Hey Fenia VR, could you please...

[balerion]

Duke, you say this world has inflation, but Fenia still maintains deflated not inflated values. If something drops twice then goes up once it is still deflation. Wheat is the easiest example. 12f wheat wasn't a maximum in the old days it was a minimum. 1 stat food 7.5f, 2 stat food 15f. You have had slight inflation on top of significant deflation. That said Fenia has always had lower food prices than Bravia, so this isn't a new thing. Stat food of every kind is selling at lower values in Imperius than used to be the minimum. That's deflation. But how much do the markets really matter when money is as easy to get as it is these days?

[Duke_of_Earl]

Duke, you say this world has inflation, but Fenia still maintains deflated not inflated values.

Fenia city more than Imperius, but that is because we have actively resisted inflation as a bad thing, me especially so.
Keeping the cost of living down and the value of 25F high is better, says I, than having it cost more to live and the value of 40F being akin to what 25F once was.

If something drops twice then goes up once it is still deflation.
Fair enough.

Wheat is the easiest example. 12f wheat wasn't a maximum in the old days it was a minimum.
That doesn't mean wheat wasn't inflated to start with. I don't know if the mechanics on wheat or animals have changed since then or what the desired profit per field average is necessarily meant to be but current equations show the fair price of wheat relative to other goods in its bracket to be 10.50-11.25. Higher than that means bread can't be only 6F or that cows, already at a loss compensated for by chickens, would need to cost significantly more. ...I amidst a butchery post for the OP and might not mind the concept of more expensive cows... so maybe you are right here, but the original tutorials references animal prices twice as high as ours meaning the cheaper fodder yields cheaper food and possibly also higher earnings for the VR to allow for the tax free environment. If we return to 13F wheat of your early days, we may not only need to raise the cattle prices, and thus the whole market that uses them, but also to adapt to a potentially smaller overall take for the VR on breeding. What was corn in those days? Part of my calculations for 10.50-11.25 wheat comes from making the yield in average field profit match that of corn at 3-3.25F (and potatoes at 7). If we were to do a scale up of any one field, I would scale all the other fields too, otherwise everyone would want to have only the one field instead of a balance of production.

1 stat food 7.5f, 2 stat food 15f. You have had slight inflation on top of significant deflation.
My goals were 6.50-6.95 for 1 stat foods, 13-13.95F for 2 stat foods, and 25F for the simpler 3stat foods.
These were all calculated on a 25F profit over production wage. ... or in some cases a 40F/# wage such as for fish/wood/fruit.
The question in the present is are people still happy, here in Fenia city, with a profit/wage range of 25-40F, or should scale the entie range forward and recalculate based on say 30-50F or higher? It must be understood however that the higher the average market prices become, the less they can be sold to 3rd parties for. This means sales by the town or VR to other towns and VRs will make less income and this may have consequences on what services can continue being offered, or offered for free, while remaining a no-tax environment. In the years already past Fenia City has gone from several newbie loan programs to newbie grant programs instead because we are doing so well fiscally that we don't even need to be repaid for boats and clothes and tools and 2nd fields that we give out to get folks off to a good start.

That said Fenia has always had lower food prices than Bravia, so this isn't a new thing. Stat food of every kind is selling at lower values in Imperius than used to be the minimum. That's deflation. But how much do the markets really matter when money is as easy to get as it is these days?

I haven't peaked lately at Imperius's market, or even especially at Fenia's. I've been in low-activity mode for the winter quarter, but this thread caught my eye. Is it easier to make money these days because of that initial deflation you speak of? I disfavor (re-)inflation because I think it would make things less amenable to being able to save up large sums of money. Eventually, the prices would rise more than the income. At least presently we have a definitive income of at least 25F and everything you need can be bought for that at a decently quick pace.

[balerion]

Classes boosting yields of all farm types. Caravan games. In town foraging. Higher yields for out of town foraging. Sleek 17. Bonus item production from fields. Perpetual wood shortages. Increased wood production for int stat. Peasants doing all the mining work so players don't have to. Peasants working fields. It's a great big long list of things.

[Duke_of_Earl]

The Bacon Conundrum.

When bacon first came out, it was a special event item for the 5th anniversary Phoenix Day. It's production equation was a bit different and its stats didn't especially matter as it was mostly made and bought to be turned in or used in a potato skins recipe that was also for turning in on the quest. Since then, bacon is now one of the staple diet items with a standard production equation of:

4 Bacon = 12 Hours + 1 Pork Belly + 2 Salt
4B = 12F + 7F + 10F
4B = 29F
Bacon Price of 7.25F

Now here alone, a body might say "well alright, 7.25 gives me my 12 hour working wage but I will still sell it for 8F and make an additional profit of 3F more than my wage". This would be all well and good except for the fact that as a 1HP 1STR item, bacon is in direct competition with Fried Chicken. It has been suggested that bacon be made into a 2STR item to differentiate, but presently it is a 1STR item. Chicken legs have production cost of:

20 Fried Chicken = 24 Hours + 10 plucked chickens + 1 Butcher Knife
20C = 24F + 100F + 3F
20C = 127F
Fried Chicken Price of 6.35F

This means a butcher (a brand new to the job butcher) can sell chicken at a profit above the wage for 6.50 but must sell bacon for at least 7.25
This is one reason why salt and pig bellies don't get any more expensive than their minimum price. Bacon can't really get too much more expensive than 7.25F if it wants to be able to compete with chicken on the market. When I first set them, chicken price range was of 6.50-6.95F. This gives the butcher a 3F-12F profit over the wage or a total of 27-36F from the job; higher level butchers being able to make more profit with less production time. Bacon requires a potential extention of this up to 7.50 Even so, it still behooves the butcher more to make chicken rather than bacon for the extra profit on that price, and so not as much bacon gets made, not as much demand for the ingredients in bacon.

The biggest demand for bacon would still be as an ingredient in the higher tier stat food "Awesome Skins". Since it is an ingredient, you don't want bacon bacon getting too much more expensive than 8F either, or it brings the price of awesome skins up too. Though last time I discussed this, Nocturn, I think it was, mentioned that I should perhaps not calculate higher tier stat foods with a level 1 butcher shop in mind. I was going to re-adapt the list for slightly cheaper ranges of higher tier stat foods that can have a bit higher base cost ingredients from more advanced workshops being used to make them, but slumped before getting around to it. I shall revisit this eventually, shortly?, but all my work is in the town council for anyone interested to pick up from if they like. There is work from others there as well.

[balerion]

Bacon isn't worth consideration ever as all salt should be placed in production of Shepard Pie. And honestly steak is so much more useful than chicken as a butcher I would only begin to think about making chicken legs if I had a chicken farm again. If you want to talk about chicken the minimum sell rate of plucked chickens MUST be dropped. Governments already pay citizens less than minimum value.

[Duke_of_Earl]

Though a personal favorite of mine, Shepherd's Pie is too expensive for newer folk to buy. I like to produce Chicken and Steak soup/stew and such that can be posted for 25F so there is always some good food around for a fair value to newbies. Yes, steak trumps chicken as chicken trumps bacon, but the chicken is there as eggs are a product almost always in demand (and milk less so as we are a fishing town). I did once suggest dropping the minimum sell rate of plucked chickens to 8F in the same place I suggested boosting the one for cows from 10 to 16. If any governments are paying less than than the minimum value, it's not Fenia City's government. We go out of our way to guarantee at least that much, even using subsidies when necessary; donors being the only exception, who voluntarily post stuff to TH for less than the designated values.

[balerion]

1 day of chopping wood or fishing in the ocean should be able to cover it. And if they are able to hunt one good day of hunting would purchase 2 or 3.

[Marleen]

I found Duke of Earl's posts very enlightening.

I just also wanted to say that the player Timenia, from Imperius, has also been active in selling and trading.

[Duke_of_Earl]

1 day of chopping wood or fishing in the ocean should be able to cover it. And if they are able to hunt one good day of hunting would purchase 2 or 3.

Maybe, or two days in these parts. Hunting and being on the ocean count as higher level activities.
I also need some celery to make those. Celery, not salt, is always the limiting factor on this market, so I can make other goods with salt until we have some celery, then make a few shepherd's pies with the celery. Some people need turn-in celery for the quest too, so I don't turn all of it into pies.

I found Duke of Earl's posts very enlightening.

I just also wanted to say that the player Timenia, from Imperius, has also been active in selling and trading.

Thank you! Please let me know if there are any other products you would like me to go over.

[balerion]

Going on the ocean requires a mere fishing boat. Easily achievable by a level 1. They cost what, 90f? Granted, Pazians have easier sea access by far, but it isn't an advanced activity at all. Of course eating a 2 stat dairy product and a 3 stat item would likely still be cheaper in the long run. Less labor and all that.