Page 1 of 2
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:50 am
by Duke_of_Earl
Posted on a wall
| | |
| I think folk may be reading too much overall into the action of 'dying in office'.
It happens sometimes; to anyone/everyone. I've done it at least twice, Aida has, Jandar, Alex, and others.
It does not necessarily say anything about the moral character of an individual to have died for a time while in office.
Sometimes things just happen in the realms beyond which interfere with a souls ability to keep griped onto this world. | |
| | |
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:01 pm
by Scarlet
Posted next to the Cat's Message
| | |
|
There is a difference between dying in office once or twice and dying in office or ignoring your office habitually every time you are elected. I understand your sentiment, however, you don't understand the history.
| |
| | |
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:52 am
by Duke_of_Earl
Myrth wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:10 pm
Scarlet wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:01 pm
Posted next to the Cat's Message
| | |
|
There is a difference between dying in office once or twice and dying in office or ignoring your office habitually every time you are elected. I understand your sentiment, however, you don't understand the history.
| |
| | |
Indeed.
Myrth wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:10 pmOphelia, had she actually wanted to commit treason, would have flipped Bravia City independent and then turned it to another VR. Instead, she began running it like an appropriate Bravia's mayor. What she did was NOT treason and did not deserve the over the top response from the VR. But they were hellbent on vengeance, consequences aside. She saved Bravia City from an historically incompetent politician, but the powers-that-be treated her like the greatest threat that ever befell Bravia City.
Reply:
► Show Spoiler
| | |
| Has she specifically been charges with treason, or charged with specific actions, but not treason? I can't see into the actual proceedings without coming to visit your city in person, I can only see what is recorded in the external office. Of note though, is that Bale was once also tried for 'not quite' treason and managed to successfully appeal on that 'not quite' part.
That she she began running the place properly isn't the issue; the issue is that in a democracy like Bravia, one cannot invalidate by force the results of an election only because they don't like or fear the ultimate results of the outcome. It doesn't matter how justifiable one might feel regarding any potential danger posed by the winning candidate. All that matters is that a candidate won an election, the results of which MUST be accepted and respected until the next election begins; or otherwise must be appealed to the VR for sanction first over any such concerns. That is the system that Bravia has. If it is not suitable, come to Fenia or Kiene, but one can't choose to void the democratic process in a VR whose culture is literally being a democracy.
Actually what I imagine will follow today/tomorrow is the sanctioned revolt by Aishe relative to Rose, such that the results of the elections shall be maintained. At least until if and when such a time occurs where Aishe does indeed prove herself unable/unwilling to handle the responsibility resulting in a sanctioned revolt. Aishe does seem to be in a high activity mode presently though, starting two new GOAS and a family.
The threat in allowing an unsanctioned revolt to stand would be the precedent for others to do the same in the future. You never want to set the first domino moving on a slippery slope; in this case, that of an individual acting on their own judgment against the will of the community, even if they personally find their actions to be in the communities best interests. Again, this might do here in Fenia or in Kiene, but in a democracy, for better or worse, majority rules. | |
| | |
Had the powers-that-be in Bravia VR not done what they did in response, I am quite sure that she would not have fled Bravia to save her life.
<<Perhaps.
But I have a feeling Destiny may be playing a part in the unfolding of these events.
Mysts and Shadows are moving now. The winds of fate and time have begun to blow in the ancient places. "The butterfly has flapped its wings".
Ophelia seems to have made a wish.
A real one. A deep one. A true one. A powerful one.
Forces are aligning now to grant or block this wish.
The consequences may not be what she expected, they never are with a wish.
But I think the road may bring her to a far greater reward than merely the ability to ensure fiscal reports are filed in a timely fashion.
I only hope she does not (continue? to) think she must first default to the use of force in service to her wish. >>
Myrth wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:10 pmBut attacking her at the same time:
1) by a duel to the death
2) AND an army attack
3) AND switching prosecutors to someone who, at a minimum, wanted to be able to prosecute Ophelia for underselling her (the new prosecutor) on the market
4) AND charging her with treason ...
the outcome is that Bravia gave Ophelia no choice but to flee for her life.
Reply:
► Show Spoiler
This is simple tactical deployment operations; not necessarily personal.
Ophelia is a Legendary opponent with a keen mastery of weapons. She can take out an entire standard army of a half-dozen+ soldiers all on her own; and was seemingly disinclined to cooperate with the VR and be voluntarily removed from office. By sending another Legendary opponent with expertise in weaponry to dual her, it allows for the standard army to retake the TH without having to deal with her themselves. This makes the situation resolve more quickly and prevents further weakening of the standard forces that a third party; like Rieron, might exploit. I am unfamiliar with the individual personal dynamics between she and whomever is prosecuting, so I shall remain silent about that; and again, if they actually did charge her with treason specifically, that might not hold up in court as indeed, she wasn't acting in the interests of a third party enemy state beyond Bravia at the time.
Myrth wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:10 pmI am surprised that I would ever say this, but thank you, Rieron! Much was made of Rieron's attack. But he did NOT attack town hall, which he could have. Instead he attacked the army that had attacked Ophelia. And, he aided her escape from the mob. He could have single-handedly taken Bravia's town hall. He could have single-handedly flipped it, taken it over. But he didn't. He just saved Ophelia and helped her. I was surprised by that, pleasantly. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you.
Reply
► Show Spoiler
Myrth.
For starters: 'Offes an image' <<
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLZOFZggG4w :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLi6KmoFTX4>>
While I'd like to believe that being mated to a good woman may be rubbing off a little on Rieron, causing him to soften up just a tiny bit; I'd be wary of presuming he's simply become a soldier for Love and Justice ready to punish evil-doers in the name of the moon. Odds are there is some motive behind his actions.
You are looking at things from only a personal perspective. The reason such a big deal was made of Rierons attack is because of the geopolitical perspective.
Rieron is the 'King' of the Diarchy of 'whatchamacallit', and head of the Dalakoi family; a prominent family integrated into Kienese politics; and he's something to do with Tsera Fuerte which might be the watchamacallit that he's the king of, I can't really remember atm. Rieron left his own sovereign territory that he is (at least half) the incarnation of the geopolitical entity thereof, and entered the sovereign territory of another geopolitical entity - Bravia, uninvited, and under a military flag, where he proceeded to involve himself in an internal political and legal dispute of that sovereign entity; in short showing no respect for said sovereignty, acting in defiance of its wishes before returning to his own sovereign territory.
This is the sort of action that can lead to war on a massive scale. Bravia would have every right to pursue justice into Tesa Fuerte territory in return, which may lead via alliances to Kiene getting involved ((especially as Tsera Fuerte is IG inside of Kienese territory)) which may then lead to Fenia getting involved, and before you know it there is global warfare over the issue not of a simple mayoral revolt, but over the issue of eliminating threats that have shown disregard for the independent sovereignty of other geopolitical entities. That IS a very big deal. The army of one geopolitical entity (even with a population of 1), has no right to enter the territory of another geopolitical entity unless asked to do so by the legitimate government thereof; and not their own perception of such. Rieron should only have been there if either Varann or possibly Ashe, asked him to be, and then only to help restore order, not to preempt the legal system.
Myrth wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 5:10 pmThere is a saying where I am from, that what a creature does comes back on them threefold. Bravia drove off one of its most dedicated citizens this week, one of its most powerful. Why? It seems the letter of the law means more than actual justice. And so they drove off one who, in another time, might have been there to defend the city, the VR. So much for far thinking military defense.
| | |
| The letter of the law is meant to define justice. Her 'usefulness' does not give her the right to revoke democracy IN a democracy. The problem with democracy is that yes indeed, sometimes injustice is what people vote for; sometimes out of ignorance or naivete; but even so, one must bear the consequences of a free election if that is the system one lives under; the system that Bravia is. Alternatively, one can trade those consequences away and accept the consequences of a Feudal Absolute Monarchy or a Theocratic Constitutional/Parliamentary? Monarchy; which each have their own pro's and cons. But one does have to move there, not try to turn Bravia into one. | |
| | |
What really makes me shake my head, is that in private, at least one Bravian involved in this gross over-reaction has previously tried to talk ME into joining a rebellion against the Bravia VR. The complete hypocrisy of that makes me ill. And, it disappoints me, deeply, heartbreakingly.
<<Yes. Corruption is another problem with politics. This one is not specific to democracy mind, just politics; across the board.>>
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:28 am
by Calysta
OOC:
Really did not want to comment in this thread, but Duke those videos you posted have nothing to do with Rieron. Is Rieron a killer? Yes. The similarities end there. The Slitheen in the clip is a killer, but it is noted in the clip that Dr. Who is a killer too. Rieron is neither like the Slitheen nor like the Doctor. The Slitheen is begging for the Doctor to spare her life. Have you ever seen Rieron grovel? He doesn't. And unlike the Doctor, have you ever seen Rieron spare an enemy and let it come bak to bite him? Your video seems to indicate that Rieron just let Ophelia go for some mundane reason like maybe she smiled. Rieron didn't let her go though. She wasn't ever a target.
IC: Calysta reads her daily reports. Bravia is in the stack too. She makes sure to keep up with what's going on.
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:34 am
by Katie
Duke_of_Earl wrote: ↑Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:50 am
Posted on a wall
| | |
| I think folk may be reading too much overall into the action of 'dying in office'.
It happens sometimes; to anyone/everyone. I've done it at least twice, Aida has, Jandar, Alex, and others.
It does not necessarily say anything about the moral character of an individual to have died for a time while in office.
Sometimes things just happen in the realms beyond which interfere with a souls ability to keep griped onto this world. | |
| | |
Aishe did NOT die in office. She was in office for only a day or two at most.
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:34 pm
by Scarlet
He was referring to the references of her dying in the past. Please keep up dear.
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:05 pm
by Duke_of_Earl
Katie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:09 amHere are the facts as I know it as to what occurred and this is not to dispute anyone, but to say specifically I am standing by this with any and all creatures...
Reply:
► Show Spoiler
| | |
|
1) Aishe moved back here this past Winter and thought Ophelia (who was mayor) was abusing power because she was holding a number of town positions.
Yes, it looked bad, but I do not believe Ophelia was doing that and have told Aishe this.
Yes. I have had to this from time to time myself, fill in as sheriff or mentor while also mayor at the time. It's just that presently, populations are so low and active populations all the lower, that sometimes it is difficult to find a replacement to fill a vacant position in short enough order.
2) Aishe ran for mayor during the Winter and Ophelia ran against her .
Ophelia used her mayoral position to send out letters requesting for people to vote for her.
Ophelia won.
Hmmmm. IMHO, this would indeed count as an abuse of power unless she also offered Aishe to submit a campaign letter to be likewise disseminated via the mail system. If shared, mass mail is actually a good way for candidates to reach an audience. At least it was not a militant response though.
3) Nocturne became mayor later and Aishe died, but dying is not illegal.
Nocturne remained mayor for quite some time.
How many months, I have lost track, but would guess several at minimum.
Yes. Like other vacancies, sometimes the same faces, off and on, are at the helm for years at a time before new blood with the interest to participate comes along.
4) Nocturne asked me to become mayor recently and life has truly been very busy for me. I asked Aishe who wanted the job if she were still interested in it. She seemed very excited so I told her I would talk to Nocturne. He had just become mayor again when I said something to him a out her becoming possible mayor. He didn't seem to have any problem with it if she knew the market value of goods, etc... I am sure she knew that.
5) Aishe ran for mayor unopposed and received 100% of the vote and at least I voted for her. There were most likely others who voted for her to
6) The mayoral race was held legally without any problems, incidences or issues.
7) Aishe did not die, etc while she was mayor; she was in the office only 24 to 48 hours max when...
8) according to Ophelia, she walked in becoming proactive and revolted against Aishe because Aishe had no militia jobs up.
Did Aishe really have no militia jobs up, or were they only all taken for the day?
That could be a defense in court for the hastiness of Ophelia's actions, if the preceding mayor had removed the militia jobs.
Bravia has hopefully long since learned its lesson about ever not having a full compliment of defenders at all times.
I wish Ophelia the very best and I wish the same for Aishe, but Aishe was killed only by the Rieron army within the past week.
I believe both of these ladies would like each other under different circumstances. They are lovely ladies and it is too bad and quite sad.
I agree, they both seem alright, but for some reason have each suspected the other of malfeasance. | |
| | |
Calysta wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:28 am
OOC:
Reply:
► Show Spoiler
Really did not want to comment in this thread, but Duke those videos you posted have nothing to do with Rieron. Is Rieron a killer? Yes. The similarities end there. The Slitheen in the clip is a killer, but it is noted in the clip that Dr. Who is a killer too. Rieron is neither like the Slitheen nor like the Doctor.
The clip is just to represent people who have done a good thing, but who aren't necessarily good people. The doctor's grapple with his own darkness has been a theme throughout the entire new-who series; and the slitheen here does also represent someone who's sincere experience of a moment of kindness does result in a redemption by the end of the episode.
The Slitheen is begging for the Doctor to spare her life.
She's not really doing that. She was only attempting to manipulate the doctor by playing off of his compassion without perhaps realizing until after he said it that he was able to recognize the nature of the beast because he shared it. She already has her plan B from the second clip in place regardless of how the dinner conversation went.
Have you ever seen Rieron grovel? He doesn't.
Well he's not a slitheen, Rieron. The groveling was the slitheens attempt at psycological manipulation.
While Rieron would never do that, I don't necessarily doubt that he has his own means of influencing people.
And unlike the Doctor, have you ever seen Rieron spare an enemy and let it come back to bite him?
Well, that's the thing though isn't it?
Maybe if he gave it a shot, he'd find it to be a good feeling after all, and like to do it more. i.e potentially lead to a path of Drizzit like redemption.
Hence if he has just given it a shot, then congratulations to him. It would make me glad and hopeful.
Your video seems to indicate that Rieron just let Ophelia go for some mundane reason like maybe she smiled.
Rieron didn't let her go though. She wasn't ever a target.
Nonono, I was responding to Myrth perceiving Rieron's action as an act of kindness: helping a Beleaguered and outnumbered individual escape potential execution, and potentially wrongful execution, by the hands of her State; seemingly on a whim. I was saying that it might be wise to not necessarily take the sight at face value. i.e. Rieron rescuing someone heroically might be what his thing is that serves the same function as the slitheens groveling; namely to play on the compassion of his enemies to reduce the fallout of the potential incident that engaging Bravian forces might have resulted in; while at the same time allowing himself to test his mettle against them and determine their relative strength for future planning.
Rieron is cunning/shrewd, more so than people give him credit for sometimes I think. The brutish and ruthless nature of violence often causes the underestimation of a perpetrators intelligence. At the end of the day, I don't see him risking a political incident of this magnitude without some sort of gain for his family or VR being part of the equation, even if it's something as simple as recruiting another legend into his circle.
On the other hand though, I'm sure he must also have some secreted away ability to be nice in spite of his reputation if he manages to draw in a circle that includes people like you and Serene and Grazilda; and now Karcier, so the possibility exists perhaps that you lot have managed to nurture this seed in him and he decided to taste what being a hero is like after all as the beginning of a bold new arc of redemption. This would be awesome, but it's not a conclusion I will jump to at the first sight. I will need to see him engage in some more acts of selfless thrilling heroics before deciding to marvel that he has turned over a new leaf. I'll get him a drink though, next time in the tavern. Rescuing someone does at least earn a drink.[/letter]
Katie wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:34 am
Aishe did NOT die in office. She was in office for only a day or two at most.
| | |
| That was a reply to the criticism that she somehow didn't deserve to hold an office because of previously dying while in an office at other times in the past. I was saying this wasn't necessarily a reason not to give someone the benefit of the doubt. The past in the past.
| |
| | |
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:19 pm
by Calysta
Ooc
Duke_of_Earl wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:05 pm
2) Aishe ran for mayor during the Winter and Ophelia ran against her .
Ophelia used her mayoral position to send out letters requesting for people to vote for her.
Ophelia won.
Hmmmm. IMHO, this would indeed count as an abuse of power unless she also offered Aishe to submit a campaign letter to be likewise disseminated via the mail system. If shared, mass mail is actually a good way for candidates to reach an audience. At least it was not a militant response though.
Unless there is a specific law against this, I don't see how you would call it abuse of power. IRL politicians can send out letters too. It's called franking privilege. Not only that, but Aishe could take the time to write every single person individually, so it isn't a disadvantage. It doesn't take long. I have done it myself.
As for your theories on Rieron, I'll let him speak for himself.
*typo
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:22 pm
by balerion
***It is illegal for real life politicians to use tax funded resources for their own campaigns. Try again.
Re: **Advisory- Per Vicerine Varann**
Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:29 pm
by Calysta
balerion wrote: ↑Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:22 pm
***It is illegal for real life politicians to use tax funded resources for their own campaigns. Try again.
Just because it is in USA 21st century doesn't mean it always has been.
And Noct, I have no desire to speak here IC. Unfortunately, there isn't an ooc topic for this, but if you like I will add 1 IC sentence.
IC: Calysta put down the report on Bravia and shook her head.