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Discussion-Mentor Reports
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:44 pm
by marleen
Can @duke_of_earl or another analysis-minded fellow post an analysis of the current economy and jobs, as there was a few posts ago in this thread? I am dying to read.
I feel like Fenia had gotten quite large and I am uncertain if some products, ingredients, and professions have gotten out of balance. I am worried about the massive quantities of product that aren't moving, as well as the players sitting on their own caches, and I am begging to wonder if perhaps Fenia is simply too over-populated. Yes, I understand that the TH subsides MUCH.
For example, there is only 1 sheep farmer, but two weavers, and it seems the market is well stocked with weaver products (clothing is a buy once then done). But there is a massive cache of wool that is not moving. I suspect there are some wool caches those weavers may be sitting on. This is just one example but there are many complexities like this that I see on the market and in the demographics and I am worried.
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 1:26 pm
by Argenth
I'm not currently in town, but before I left for a trade run I don't remember having seen any balls of wool on the market. The wool that is currently on the market is it balls or scraps of wool? Because scraps of different materials are a rather useless material at it's current state, produced from recycling former products. Scraps of wool for example, it's current use is that it can be remade into new balls of wool, though it is a more costly process than aquiring new balls of wool from a farmer.
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:01 pm
by Ella
"Welcome to our fine town, @marleen. As mayor, I prefer to allow for a more free market as I feel that keeps things healthier. Many of the items you see duplicates of on the market are items that are found while foraging that creatures either have enough of or do not have any use for personally."
"Now, if you have any items that you wish to get moved quickly from your personal inventory you can write to me and we can discuss prices."
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:42 pm
by Duke_of_Earl
| | |
| Ella wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:01 pmAs mayor, I prefer to allow for a more free market as I feel that keeps things healthier.
Really? I hadn't known that and have still been doing my best to help manage the market via the temple, at least until the recent changes. I don't believe in completely 'free markets'; and have found them to be significantly less healthy than thoroughly managed markets; particularly in a Feudal Monarchy relative to a Republic.
Many of the items you see duplicates of on the market are items that are found while foraging that creatures either have enough of or do not have any use for personally."
@marleen & others;
Zachrin recently changed the way recycling works.
Previously; all items could be recycled for 11% more than their minimum purchase values. Items like golem pieces for example which were posted for 2F-2.20F could be ought by the temple and recycled for 2.22F
Now items recycle for -10% of their minimum purchase price. The recycle value of a 2F item is now 1.80F and the recycle value of a 5F item is 4.50F.
This has slowed my ability to overturn weed items as doing so now comes at a loss to the temple which must me made up somewhere else.
I'm still in the process of researching which items if any I can use to fund the recycling costs of other items. I'm otherwise doing my best to try and convert primary goods into secondary ones but it is likewise slow going. Hopefully I will soon hit level 5 and be able to pick up that pace a little bit.
marleen wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:44 pmI feel like Fenia had gotten quite large and I am uncertain if some products, ingredients, and professions have gotten out of balance. I am worried about the massive quantities of product that aren't moving, as well as the players sitting on their own caches, and I am begging to wonder if perhaps Fenia is simply too over-populated. Yes, I understand that the TH subsides MUCH.
We and Imperius are now about tie in population at about 30 and are the the most populous cities in Fenia.
The three others are about 20 and cork is less; we are trying to boost theirs so they wont be shut down.
Even so, 30 is still not especially populated. we're hoping we can hit 50.
For example, there is only 1 sheep farmer, but two weavers, and it seems the market is well stocked with weaver products (clothing is a buy once then done).
Mine isn't weaver anymore, though I might shift back for a week if Adamus can't make scarecrows yet. Clothing decomposition is coded in now, people do have to replace clothing from time to time.
But there is a massive cache of wool that is not moving.
That's because it's up at 6.50. I wont buy wool for more than 5F tops.
Wool that is posted for the right price will still move right away. 70 isn't too massive a cache.
If I did swap back I could process all of that in one set of projects; but it's too expensive for me to consider @6.50.
I suspect there are some wool caches those weavers may be sitting on.
nods, it costs less than 2F to produce wool all things considered so a weaver is better off using their own stocks rather than buying from a separate sheep farmer.
The same is true for cows and butchers/millers. Market prices for milk are still ~7.50; and I found it can still actually be produced for 5F.
marleen wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:44 pmThis is just one example but there are many complexities like this that I see on the market and in the demographics and I am worried.
Why is it worrying? | |
| | |
((
Hey, if you are the same Marleen from before you might be able reactivate your former account rather than having to start over from scratch. Have you written to Zachrine about it?))
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:38 pm
by Nikola
Duke_of_Earl wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:42 pm
| | |
| Ella wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:01 pmAs mayor, I prefer to allow for a more free market as I feel that keeps things healthier.
Really? I hadn't known that and have still been doing my best to help manage the market via the temple, at least until the recent changes. I don't believe in 'free markets'; at least not in a place like Fenia. They may be fine for a republic like Bravia, but they create an urban jungle where social darwinism can cause some to fail or fall behind and others to far outpace their peers. Free markets do not favor equity. | |
| | |
That was uncalled for, Duke. Particularly as your tight control of the market when I first moved to Fenia meant there was very little on the market and people were eating their produce rather than selling it as they couldn't afford to sell it at the rock bottom prices you demanded as the acceptable price. You still seem to enjoy bringing in items that are not from your workshop in order to undermine the craftsmen in Fenia City, making their workshops obsolete while you gather the profits that could have been theirs. You have certainly benefited from a free market, yet you claim you don't believe in them.
I absolutely do not believe in any one creature trying to completely control the market. Your strategy may work well for you personally, but not so much for anyone else. You profit plenty by controlling the market and undermining the other creatures in town. How is that being civic minded and helpful? Markets work pretty much the same anywhere that people are allowed to grow, make and sell what is needed and they are capable of producing. The fact that Fenia is a monarchy has absolutely nothing to do with how markets work.
Fenia's market has a lot of choices and is healthier than it ever was when you were in total control of it. Yes, there are several people trying to sell the same items, but that gives the buyer choices. How is that a bad thing? If a seller finds his product isn't moving, he can always either lower the price to be more competitive or take it elsewhere to sell. I have seen Imperius' market and their prices are much higher than Fenia's, but lower still than Kiene and Bravia. You think Bravia is better suited for a free market? Paz has almost nothing on its market and while Bravia City's market has more choice and volume, their prices are ridiculously high almost across the board. Why is that? Because there are only two or three people producing there and they keep the prices elevated in much the same way you have tried to keep the creatures of Fenia City from making a profit on their produce by demanding that they sell so cheaply that they cannot recoup their costs.
Fenia's markets are far healthier both in choices and in prices than either of the markets in Bravia and that's in spite of your efforts to control ours, not because of it. When I first moved here I chose to live in Fenia City because the market was virtually bare of needed items. People were asking, almost begging for basic items and not getting them from the town so I thought I could help. Turns out they weren't getting them because you were not allowing those items to sit on the market long enough for the people to get to them. Why you believe that an empty market at rock bottom prices is healthy is a mystery to me. Empty markets mean people can't get what they want or need. Rock bottom prices might sound good in theory, but it means no profits for the sellers which means creatures go back to eating or using their own produce instead of selling what other creatures need.
Remember the potato famine? We had plenty of potato farmers, but under your rules, they couldn't afford to sell their produce so they ate their own and people without a potato field could not get the charisma stats they needed. I tried importing broccoli from Bravia but it turned out all that was needed to encourage our own people to work their fields and sell their potatoes was to offer them a decent price for the potatoes. You came unglued at that, but it worked. The potato famine was crushed and we have a healthy supply of potatoes on the market plus we can now export the potatoes which we could not do before. The prices fluctuate based on what people are willing to pay, but the potatoes are there for people who need them.
Remember the egg shortage? Peasants were snapping up most of the few eggs that ever made it to market. We had chicken farmers but they couldn't make enough money on their product to keep eggs on the market so they were juggling their own eggs and creatures who needed to work on their dexterity couldn't. While it is true that peasants' buying up the cheap eggs was a bit of a problem, you compounded it by not allowing people to even try to price their eggs such that the peasants would leave them alone and civilized creatures could get to them. We solved that shortage, too. Now we have plenty of eggs for people to use to either eat, bake with, or juggle to increase dexterity and they are no longer being hoarded in the Town Hall where they are inaccessible to creatures who need them.
Fenia's market is healthy and diverse and one of the most reasonably priced markets in all of Secfenia. Do we have some items that are priced high? Of course. These are usually from traders visiting from outside the province, but occasionally local creatures will try to make more than is warranted on their products. When given a choice, most creatures will choose the lower priced items so that the market tends to correct itself in that if a seller isn't moving their produce and they need it to sell, they will either lower the price to a more competitive level or remove the product and take it elsewhere.
Fenia doesn't need you to strip the market to keep it healthy. If anything, that just gives the sellers a false sense of need and keeps them producing more than is truly needed under the assumption that the product is in demand. As for social darwinism causing some to fail or fall behind and others to far outpace their peers, some people fall behind their peers simply because they are not competitive and prefer to progress at their own pace. Others fall behind because they do not speak up and let their needs be known. Some people are driven to succeed and they will almost always outpace their brethren as a result. It is the way things are. People are different. You cannot force every creature to fit the same mold. If a creature chooses to progress more slowly than you think they should, then by all means offer advice, but let them decide for themselves whether to accept that advice. If a creature is driven to succeed and seems to be progressing more quickly than you think they ought, is it right to place obstacles to slow them down?
You and I have gone around and around about this and I am never going to see your idea of stripping the market and keeping it bare as healthy. You insult our mayor who has been responsive to requests from her citizens and has worked hard to make sure the market has plenty of what our creatures need on it, working with the VR and her citizens to produce items that are needed. If you are still stripping the market to recycle just because you don't like to see things available to our citizens, then you have been making her job harder than it should be. When you strip the market of what you deem to be surplus, you send a message that the product you are buying is in demand and that often means more of that product finds its way back on the market in anticipation of meeting that presumption of need. If anything, you may be creating the very problem you seem to be trying to solve by doing this to the market.Perhaps you should stop and let us learn what really IS needed and what is not. If you think we are overproducing, how are we to every find out if that is the case if you keep buying up the extra?
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:27 pm
by Duke_of_Earl
@marleen
Fields
-Chicken: Duke_of_Earl, Karysia, Thartis, Racod_Jarka,
-Corn: Johnstone, Dahlia, Gemma, Xylia, Karysia, Faranni, Rakus, Janetta, Cristal,
-Cow: Texas_Knight,
-Klah: Rakus, Fireheart,
-Sheep: Ermalyse,
-Veggie: Nikola, Rannek(x2), Duke_of_Earl, Xylia, Dwayberry, Silenus(x2), Argenth(x2), Ella, Evan(x2), Adamus, Janetta, Chronicler(x2), Racod_Jarka, Zehara, Highlandpotter(x2), Athanasia,
-Wheat: Johnstone, Texas_Knight, Nikola, Dahlia, Gemma, Dwayberry, Archadeas(2), Bloodstone(x2), Ella, Arianrhod, Adamus, Thartis, Ermalyse, Fitz(x2), Zehara, Izumari, marleen,
Workshops
-Baker: Nikola, Duke_of_Earl, Faranni,
-Blacksmith: Silenus, Bloodstone, Rakus, Janetta, Chronicler
-Butcher: Texas_Knight, Dahlia, Evan, Ella, Karysia,
-Carpenter: Johnstone, Gemma, Xylia,
-Mason: Rannek, Archadeas, Argenth
-Miller: Johnstone, Nikola, Dwayberry, Thartis
-Weaver: Adamus, Ermalyse
@Nikola Sorry; I'd edited it already before I started the above post.
I'll respond to yours though anyway; gimmie a sec.
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:13 am
by Duke_of_Earl
.I lost the post. will have to try again after some sleep.
Edit: Take two
Lost bits again and redid them.
----
► Show Spoiler
Nikola wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:38 pmDuke_of_Earl wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:42 pm | | |
| Ella wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:01 pmAs mayor, I prefer to allow for a more free market as I feel that keeps things healthier.
Really? I hadn't known that and have still been doing my best to help manage the market via the temple, at least until the recent changes. I don't believe in 'free markets'; at least not in a place like Fenia. They may be fine for a republic like Bravia, but they create an urban jungle where social darwinism can cause some to fail or fall behind and others to far outpace their peers. Free markets do not favor equity. | |
| | |
That was uncalled for, Duke.
If you say so. Appologies. It's true though. Free markets do not favor equity, they do operate on individualist principles that create an underclass of the working poor and an overclass of the obscenely wealthy. This is why I do not truck with free markets in a society that is not otherwise already libertarian in nature.
Particularly as your tight control of the market when I first moved to Fenia meant there was very little on the market and people were eating their produce rather than selling it as they couldn't afford to sell it at the rock bottom prices you demanded as the acceptable price.
There wasn't "very little" on the market; except for when their were actual phsyical shortages or lack of specific producers. For all that we were able to produce, there was always enough of it. I don't understand your citation of people eating their own produce as a negative. I eat my own produce. It is much cheaper than buying produce. The solution to eating produce is using it for manufacturing instead to make higher tier items. -.
You have certainly benefited from a free market, yet you claim you don't believe in them.
Despite what ou really meant, I do trade on forign markets and so will grant you part A of this sentence, I do benefit rom free markets. That does not mean I have to approve of them. ree markets create an underclass o workin poor and an overclass of oscenely rich. They are volitile. Just because I ay hae some skill at navigating them when I''m in one doesn't mean I'd rather have a better, fairer, more equitable and less volitile style of market. I don not approve of free markets. At least not completel free. Reletivel ree markets are alright, but minimum wage protections within reason are good. protections from extortion are good.
absolutely do not believe in any one creature trying to completely control the market.
The creature is incidental. It's the system. The system is inherited by the next creature to come along. The insititution (i.e TH) is the regulator. The creature serves the institution by applying the system and the institution serves the needs of the body politique / the populace at large.
Your strategy may work well for you personally, but not so much for anyone else.
The strategy works equally well for everyone. That is the point of an equitable economic strategy - to work equally well for everyone.
Markets work pretty much the same anywhere that people are allowed to grow, make and sell what is needed and they are capable of producing. The fact that Fenia is a monarchy has absolutely nothing to do with how markets work.
No; the difference is cultural. A free market is best suited to a free society; a place of libertarian values where individualism is the social norm and collectivism is a potentially frightening paradigm. A kingdom is different. The kingdom is a central focus of life - Loyalty to the kingdom; Pride in the Kingdom; Duty to the Kingdom; etc. Individuals work not only, or even primarily, for their own goals but for the strength and peace of the kingdom - its betterment. The Kingdom improves and life for all improve with it. Collectivism is more of a social norm, individualsm less so than in place with republican values. The market too can be a tool in the social contract between the individual and the state; one way or the other. In a free society, at least theoretically, the authority does not exist to mandate things like minimum wage protections; anti-gouging pricing caps, etc. People live in the wind and let the chips fall where they may. In a society with a more rigid social doctrine however, the authority does exist to mandate minimum wage protections, anti-gouging pricing caps, etc. This sort of regulation is better suited to a society like ours than a society like Bravias. This is not say that free societies can't also make laws to do the same; but in those societies, law is made by the society itself - Electively. In our society, law is made by King Zuan. This is the fundamental difference between two dissimilar cultures.
Fenia's market has a lot of choices and is healthier than it ever was when you were in total control of it. Yes, there are several people trying to sell the same items, but that gives the buyer choices. How is that a bad thing?
It's an illusion - 'the choice'. Unless one is specifically going out of their way to make a choice so as to say buy from a friend, protoge or a newbie y contract; all of which there is now the private market for anyway; the general way a public market works is that buyers will almost always buy the cheapest items listed and sellers will almost always sell for 0.05F less than the last listing that they see. If you don't have a bottom line or a fast overturn, then the prices fall below where people make a fair profit from selling their goods. If our goal is to make sure they all make at least a fair profit, then you need either a bottom line at which you/the institution buys it when no one else is; or you need a fast pace of overturn: demand up relative to supply, to keep the prices from falling down to that bottom line in the first place. Since we can't necessarily control demand. What we can control is what price we as the institution choose to buy in materials for. As opposed to making this a random choice, an opinion of what does or does not constitute fair; I make it the result of an equation instead. An equation cannot play favorites and is therefor always fair.
If a seller finds his product isn't moving, he can always either lower the price to be more competitive or take it elsewhere to sell.
Presuming lowering the price below a fair profit is off the table; you are forgetting the 3rd and most important choice. You can sell it to TH(or another 3rd party); who can take it elsewhere to sell. That's the bargain; The Deal. You don't have to wait and either undersell, or travel at your own expense at risk of a loss even after a higher price elsewhere, etc; but you make the fair profit; any extra profit beyond that TH happens to make on the resale is TH's. That is how TH builds its own coffers for funding services. You need to remember to take into account the fact that TH needs to make money too. It's not all just about the seller making the most they can. It's about the seller not being forced to make any less than they deserve to; being protected from that; but also the opportunity existing and even being encouraged for them to help support their TH by using it as such a middle man in transactions and allowing the little bit extra to go to the institution so the institution can continue to operate on behalf of the sellar and all of their neighbors.
have seen Imperius' market and their prices are much higher than Fenia's, but lower still than Kiene and Bravia.
I've noticed; and commented about it often.
You think Bravia is better suited for a free market?
Yes. Well, maybe not with their current activity levels, but in general yes. Bravia is a free society is it not. You tell me; does it have those libertarian sensibilities which value individualism - an independent approach to life and its consequences? - Living in the wind and letting the chips land where they may? In a place whose denizens are of such a mind, Regulation is an affront to liberty. Notwithstanding certain direct safety issues like fire escapes, locks, children and heavy machines, etc.; regulation tends to be rejected by the population as an overly authoritarian practice. This is where a free market belongs. I would not try to regulate a Bravian market as such would be socially inappropriate to it's culture.
Similarly, a completely free market is socially inappropriate to a culture whose greater values are security and stability, efficiency, and co/interdependent sensibilities regarding ones approach to life and its consequences - the sharing of burdens; and fortunes; particularly as pertaining to relationship between an individual and the community or the state; and a society with a more rigid social structure. In such a society, regulation is; or at least can be, part of the social contract - The promise by the state of a sound, safe, sure, and secure, regularly dependable income; in exchange for the promise by the citizen not to act against the interests of others who are likewise under the protection of the state.
Nikola wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:38 pmPaz has almost nothing on its market and while Bravia City's market has more choice and volume, their prices are ridiculously high almost across the board. Why is that? Because there are only two or three people producing there and they keep the prices elevated in much the same way you have tried to keep the creatures of Fenia City from making a profit on their produce by demanding that they sell so cheaply that they cannot recoup their costs.
-sigh.
Nikola.
You really have to understand this.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to not recoup your costs and make a profit when the pricing equation literally is [YOUR COSTS + X%]"
You are misinformed if you think anyone in Fenia is unable to recoup their costs and make a profit on their output. Whoever may be telling you such is misinformed as to how fields works and should contact me or Ella for instruction or a link to the appropriate tutorials and guides. If you produce from a field you will automatically make a profit when selling within the determined price range. Automatically. There is absolutely no chance you will ever make less than it costs for you to produce or even only that amount.
Fenia's markets are far healthier both in choices and in prices than either of the markets in Bravia and that's in spite of your efforts to control ours, not because of it.
Our economy has been superior all along; for years and years.
When I first moved here I chose to live in Fenia City because the market was virtually bare of needed items.
You mean it wasn't because of how spendidly we'd get along together?
People were asking, almost begging for basic items and not getting them from the town so I thought I could help.
Whatever people asked me for; I sought on their behalf. Let someone come forward who asked me for something and thinks I didn't at least look for it for them and report my results of the search if I couldn't find any.
Turns out they weren't getting them because you were not allowing those items to sit on the market long enough for the people to get to them.
The items sit for 24 hours at a time. The TH always maintained one line of each available items.
Why you believe that an empty market at rock bottom prices is healthy is a mystery to me.
If producers are producing full time and yet there is not any stock building up on the market, it means overturn is happening that quickly and the producers are in short order liquidating their production and making regular earnings from their workshop. It's when producers are working every day but not selling everyday, that their costs don't get recouped.
"Empty markets mean people can't get what they want or need. "
The markets were not 'empty'". That is an exageration. Needs come first; but the point of putting something on the market is because you want to sell it and make money. If the result of your placing an item on the market is that you sell it and make money, then where is the problem? You have achieved your objective.
Rock bottom prices might sound good in theory, but it means no profits for the sellers which means creatures go back to eating or using their own produce instead of selling what other creatures need.
"Rock bottom prices" were good in practice; not just theory; they helped TH generate large sums of income in there day.
and rock bottom prices is also an exageration. You yourself regularly produce at less than my buy-in floors. Hence my buy-in floors are not rock bottom, if you can go under them. The reason you can go under them is because they are calculated based on the fair wage of a new level 2. A 2/2, 3/3, or Artisan workshop at those ranges make steadily increasing profits. "Yuuuge profits."
Remember the potato famine?
Remember my discussion with Zach about potato farms.
We had plenty of potato farmers, but under your rules, they couldn't afford to sell their produce so they ate their own and people without a potato field could not get the charisma stats they needed.
Potatoes were subsidized by TH; I've told you this before. They need to be ~7F on the open market; but under the old mechanics could not be produced for such. Now; my last yield was 12 potatoes. They cost me 16F in wage or 1.33F per potato. I can make a profit selling these at 2F. Even if I doubled this and paid 32 plus an oats and some feed costs; it would cost 3F per potato and I could still make a 2F profit; each; by selling them for 5F; or valuing them as such in my own workshop. Talk about Rock Bottom pricing. I only insist on trying to keep them below 8F; not 5F. There is no reason for potatoes to be out of balance with milk and fried chicken legs.
I tried importing broccoli from Bravia but it turned out all that was needed to encourage our own people to work their fields and sell their potatoes was to offer them a decent price for the potatoes. You came unglued at that, but it worked. The potato famine was crushed and we have a healthy supply of potatoes on the market plus we can now export the potatoes which we could not do before.
1Fried Chicken Leg + 1 Bottle of Milk + 1 Potato + 1 Egg = 1 days wage of 24F
Challenge:
Without changing the value of 1 days wage; distribute that value amongst the 4 neccesary items.
Is 7F+7F+7F+3F no good?
If you want potatoes to be 9F; what would you like to be 5F?
Chicken needs to be at least 7F to make a butcher their minimum fair value of 27F (24F+10% r-up)
Milk was already going at 7F, and eggs at 3, naturally.
To make a 100 day leveling schedule required potatoes to likewise be 7F.
You jacked up the price without regard to this.
I'd spent 4 years of struggle at keeping the wage 24F. 4 years of effort.
Appologies for getting a bit angry when this was disregarded and met with a "Times They Are-a-Changing!" reply.
I take things a bit too seriously sometimes.
Potatoes farming by the by was not a priority until the new combat rules made charisma a more potent aspect of fighting. I never pursued a potato industry in my day; wheat is where we made our money. By the time your potato thing came into play; I'd already been stepped down at the time. The 100 day leveling schedule : getting people a workshop; was a higher priority then charisma building. But now look you have the market is flush with 9F potatoes. I don't think people are going to buy them instead of use their own 5F potatoes. I will buy potatoes for certain production, but for no more than 7F . That is the only way I can keep the price of the manufactured good below 30F; at least until I hit 3 on these shops, and my steward will not often be an accompanying 3.
The prices fluctuate based on what people are willing to pay, but the potatoes are there for people who need them.
Perhaps; but we have near 100 9F potatoes up. I don't think I can move those. I can only move them for less than 8F. Give it a try yourself if you think you can move them @9F for any returns.
Remember the egg shortage? Peasants were snapping up most of the few eggs that ever made it to market.
Egg production wasn't low, the peasants were actually snapping them all up. You are deliberatly trying to describe the situation as though eggs weren't making it to the market in any significant numbers before the peasant thing. Eggs were not in short supply until they all suddenly began disappearing.
We had chicken farmers but they couldn't make enough money on their product to keep eggs on the market so they were juggling their own eggs and creatures who needed to work on their dexterity couldn't.
No. The price was irrelivant. The peasants just kept on snapping them up. The prices went all the way up to 4F and beyond, the peasants still kept on taking them even above that. There was not an issue of chicken farmers not being able to make enough money. Chicken farmers have been making the same amount of money on eggs since long before even my time. My struggle has largely been to keep eggs ABOVE 3F; between 3 and 3.35. I've never before that peasant incident had an occasion to consider trying to cap egg prices because they were getting too high. I couldn't even Cap them; the peasants were buying at like 5F and 6F. They would just buy out my cap; and I didn't hae enough eggs to make a cap anway.
While it is true that peasants' buying up the cheap eggs was a bit of a problem, you compounded it by not allowing people to even try to price their eggs such that the peasants would leave them alone and civilized creatures could get to them. [/i]
No again. We did test the egg prices. Argenth and I both tested them. I had 1 egg up at every price between of 0.05F between 2F and 5F. They weren't just buying the cheap eggs. They were buying up ALL the eggs.
You overestimate and overstate my capacity to enforce caps. What do you mean "I wouldn't let anyone try to post eggs for more." How would I stop them? Do you think I could set the army on someone for posting a 4F egg? Charge them in court with some crime over it?
All that a pricing cap is, is what price I as the TH/temple/etc. would be willing to buy the item in for if you want a quick sale. When we say there is a cap of "12F" on wheat. That doesn't mean 'it is illegal for you to post wheat on pane of punishment for more than 12F'. It means if you post wheat for more than 12F; I as the institution will not buy it; and likely will make sure there is some of the same product up at the ceiling price. You will have to fend for yourself in trying to sell goods above the official ceiling.
Among other things, the ceiling is usually also what price that I am confident I can move those goods for; and make a little something for the TH, or the temple as the case may be, by doing so. If I don't think I can move a good, then I am not going to buy it. I am not confident I can move wheat for anymore than 12F; therefore I am not going to buy in any wheat for the temple or a grant or whatnot for anymore than 12F. People don't get 'in trouble' for ignoring a ceiling; they get a note from me confirming they are aware of what the price range is. Sometimes they don't. That is the limit of my 'enforcement.' A note and possibly some releasing of the same good from stocks at a more competitive price if there isn't already some other stock up there to discourage extortionate pricing; sometimes vice-versa. I've even been known to buy the higher priced good from time to time and average it against some cheaper version of the same to repost within the appropriate range. The most common being someone posting steak for more than 14F. More often than not, rather than kicking up a fuss, I'll just buy some of Logo's steak along with the other and repost it all for 14F.
We solved that shortage, too. Now we have plenty of eggs for people to use to either eat, bake with, or juggle to increase dexterity and they are no longer being hoarded in the Town Hall where they are inaccessible to creatures who need them.
TH wasn't 'hoarding' eggs at the time either, we were out too and had to buy in 100 of them from you remembmer.
We are presently drowning in eggs, a problem in and of itself; not a solution, and TH doesn't need to be hoarding more eggs; there are hundreds stored in temple already; I'm not going to let us be caught unawares again the next time the peasants all come down with an omlette craving.
Fenia's market is healthy and diverse and one of the most reasonably priced markets in all of Secfenia.
Yes. Yes it is.
Do we have some items that are priced high? Of course.
Nothing extortianate though. Nothing I've found aggrivatingly high; apart perhaps from the 6.50 wool.
These are usually from traders visiting from outside the province, but occasionally local creatures will try to make more than is warranted on their products. When given a choice, most creatures will choose the lower priced items so that the market tends to correct itself in that if a seller isn't moving their produce and they need it to sell, they will either lower the price to a more competitive level or remove the product and take it elsewhere.
I think I said this same thing to you in a reply above. Been typing this all day since like 10AM.
Fenia doesn't need you to strip the market to keep it healthy.
? Sweep? Do you mean when I for example have the temple buy all 96 9F potatoes and repost them as 1 line? Possibly averaging them against some of my own donated potatoes so I can repost them for less than 9F? If that example is what you are referencing; need is irrelivant. Normally it's a favor I'm glad to do to give producers the money the want while giving consumers cheaper food. It may not be a need; but it distributes money out to the population and allows the institution to assume the waiting. The problem is, until I can figure out how to keep the temple solvent without regular recycling; I don't have the layout costs available to do so atm.
If anything, that just gives the sellers a false sense of need and keeps them producing more than is truly needed under the assumption that the product is in demand.
That is absolutely correct; yes.
As for social darwinism causing some to fail or fall behind and others to far outpace their peers, some people fall behind their peers simply because they are not competitive and prefer to progress at their own pace.
If it's a matter of preference, then it isn't my concern. It onl becomes my concern if they prefer to go faster but find that circumstances beyond their control are holding them back and ask me what to do about it.
Others fall behind because they do not speak up and let their needs be known.
nods.
Nikola wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:38 pmSome people are driven to succeed and they will almost always outpace their brethren as a result. It is the way things are. People are different. You cannot force every creature to fit the same mold. If a creature chooses to progress more slowly than you think they should, then by all means offer advice, but let them decide for themselves whether to accept that advice. If a creature is driven to succeed and seems to be progressing more quickly than you think they ought, is it right to place obstacles to slow them down?
You and I have gone around and around about this and I am never going to see your idea of stripping the market and keeping it bare as healthy.
I don't understand what you are talking about. The market doesn't go bare. The same product is there after a sweep as before one. It is just condensed from multiple lines to one line. A sweep isn't done for the market's health. It's done when the TH wants to sink some extra cash out to the populace rather than keeping it in the inventory and instead bring in some net value of goods. It's just buying some stock out so the producer isn't left waiting to long to make a sale.
You insult our mayor who has been responsive to requests from her citizens and has worked hard to make sure the market has plenty of what our creatures need on it, working with the VR and her citizens to produce items that are needed.
I can't tell if you are implying here that I hadn't been responsive to requests? Ella is doing a great job and is being a Fantastic mayor. -insert 9th doctor line here- Responsiveness is the first stone in the foundation of the job. I don't know of any mayor on the list who wasn't responsive.
If you are still stripping the market to recycle just because you don't like to see things available to our citizens,
Weed items are ones that are available in glut that nobody wants. They are wastes of inventory space and have no other function but to be gotten rid of. They are litterally there for peasants to convert slowly into a couple of extra Freznics for the poster. The temple does this faster and before the change it was of mutual benefit. It's not only the poster who wants a couple of F for their piece of junk. The temple needs the money generated too.
When you strip the market of what you deem to be surplus, you send a message that the product you are buying is in demand and that often means more of that product finds its way back on the market in anticipation of meeting that presumption of need.
This one is different then the weed recycling; you are maybe talking about Hoover items here? Nikola, this isn't an inadvertant side effect. This is the goal. The goal is to ensure professionals have the ability to work there shop as often as they like and be ale to make their daily wage that way. Be able to make their living as professional laborer as opposed to only doing it every once in a while and having to look for other jobs to do normally.
The design is to separate production from actual demand; which potentially pays better when it's there. Its a problem when professional citizens are not able to get regular use out of their workshop if they want to. Hoover item recycling was a solution to that problem. This does not "strip the market". Someone producing Hoover items is doing so specifically for that purpose; I'm not doing 'at random shopping'; it's pre-arranged. Whoever wants to level their shop or whatnot gets in touch and I arrange a contract. - Again this was of mutal benefit until recently. The producer gains a client with limitless demand, and the temple gains another trickle of regular income. We do need income. The temple, like the TH has expenses. We don't have very many was to generate revenue. Recycling was our main one.
Nikola wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:38 pmIf anything, you may be creating the very problem you seem to be trying to solve by doing this to the market.Perhaps you should stop and let us learn what really IS needed and what is not. If you think we are overproducing, how are we to every find out if that is the case if you keep buying up the extra?
What problem. Your response was triggered by my respnse to Ella that I'd still been managing the market as best I could and was unaware she was attempting to do something "free market' oriented.
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cont.
--let's moe this to pm if you want to contue eh?
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:55 am
by marleen
It is, I chose to start over. (Thanks!)
@Duke_of_Earl Get yourself a form saver, like Lazarus browser extension? You will say "Ah, I don't need it", but when you panic that you just lost your post because your cat laid on your computer while you got up to get a snack (or whatever), you'll love it from that moment on. Also, there are browser extensions so that you can drag your mouse and open a bunch of links at once (... say a bunch of creatures from the TH population listing all in one mouse drag...) - I use Snap Links but it doesn't work well with Secfenia's iFrames.
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:27 am
by Rannek
((I should also note that it seems Lazarus is no longer compatible with Chrome. At least last time I checked, that may potentially have changed.))
Re: Mentor Reports.
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:23 am
by Amnestria
(I just hit the back button and my post seems to always still be there. I have done it more than once on my phone especially when my kid comes up pressing buttons. )